cheap halcyon gear

[SeaJay]

jplacson once bubbled...
Hmm.. now you have me thinking... If I dove an AL tank in the future... would it be easy to offset the buoyancy with just trim weights?

Sure, you could do that... But then you'd have lots of trim weights all over you, and that would be sort of a pain in the neck. "Danglies" suck, IMHO... And work against clean streamlining.

My recommendation is to get your rig as close to neutral as possible in freshwater... And add the necessary weights in trim for salt water.

...Which is why consistency is so advantageous.

What made you decide on a steel tank? Do you already own one? Are you renting tanks on a regular basis, and if you are, what would you be renting?

For reference, the training I've had recommends AL tanks whenever you dive with a wetsuit, whether you're diving fresh or salt. This is done for the buoyancy characteristics. I'll elaborate another time... The point is that if you're diving a drysuit (Trilam, right?) then you have a redundant buoyancy device in that suit... And steel tanks wouldn't be a bad idea, depending on how much weight you need.

...Speaking of which, let's look at your needed weight... I understand that you're diving dry, and you're neutral at depth. Four pounds and whatever your steel 80 weighs is all the weight you need in salt water, right? What's that 80 weigh, anyway? Can you give us a brand and model? I'll check it against the stats and we should have a pretty good idea of what kind of weight you're using... And how to predict the situation with other kinds of tanks. A few examples of this will make the logic clear... But I need to know which tank you're diving now.

I'm guessing so since Halcyon's trim pockets can hold up to 5lbs per side pocket... so I'm guessing I'll be needing something like 6-8lbs total to offset the +4 buoyancy on an empty AL tank...am I doing it right?

It depends on how much that steel tank weighs... Your above calculations are assuming that your steel is neutral when empty... Which may be right, and it may not.

Assuming that it is neutral when empty, then here's how I see the numbers:

Now: Tank, 0 lbs... Suit, +2 lbs (it floats, right, even just a little?)... BC, +2 lbs... You need -4 lbs to zero everything out and be properly weighted.

If you chose to dive the same rig, but a Luxfer AL80 instead of your steelie: Tank +4 lbs (always take the empty weight)... Suit, +2 lbs... BC, +2 lbs... You need -4 lbs to be properly weighted, plus you need to offset the additional buoyancy of the tank... So you'd need a total of -8 lbs to be properly weighted. A weight belt or ACB pockets would do this for you.

Taking this one step further, you can see that a backplate and wing setup would be beneficial because it would reduce your weight requirement... Let's run the numbers with your steel tank and an aluminum backplate, with a Koplin "light" single tank adaptor (most people prefer to use a STA, even with the Halcyon built-in STA):

Tank, 0 lbs... Suit, +2 lbs... BC, -1 lbs (plate is -1 lb, STA is -1 lb, but the wing floats, even when empty)... You'd only need -1 additional pound of weight to be properly weighted.

If you did the same with an AL tank, you'd probably want to use a SS plate...

Tank, +4 lbs... Suit, +2 lbs... BC, -6 lbs (plate is -6 lbs, STA is -1 lb, wing is +1 lb)... See how that works out perfectly with no additional weight at all?

...Of course, we've been talking about salt water in the above examples, and buoyancy is different in fresh water. I recommend doing the same calculations for fresh water (tanks lose a pound everywhere and you and your suit aren't nearly as buoyant... You may want to, for example, dive a steel plate and AL tank in salt water, but an AL plate and steel tank for fresh... And so on. It depends on how the numbers work out...)

Is the SS plate more durable against corrossion? Or are they both just the same? I read a maintenace tip to dunk a semi corroded SS plate in Coca-Cola to eat away the rust... would the same work for AL?

In all honesty, I haven't had a problem with it, and so I've never tried it. To be perfectly honest, I haven't ever seen any plate corrode, and I'd say it's really a nonissue. If you want the straight "skinny" directly from our resident metallurgist, though, I recommend giving FredT a shout... Just do a search here on the board for FredT and send him a private message. He's a great guy.

My thinking is that I'd be more flexible with an AL plate and additional trim weights, than be stuck with the SS plate, and now way to reduce my weights as needed.

I think you're dead-on... The AL plate would give you more flexibility, but the SS plate would remove some of the weight you'd otherwise have to wear. SS plates also put the weight over your lungs, where your body is most buoyant, and so the trim characteristics of a "standard" SS plate are such that they neutralize your body's tendency to float head-up instead of horizontal.

There is one thing to consider, though... We haven't done any freshwater examples. Most people use five or six pounds less in freshwater as they do salt... And an SS plate might overweight you from the get-go. Of course, it wouldn't be by much, but hey, who wants to be overweighted?

Thanks to everyone who's giving their 2 cents worth!!!

...I think I'm up to about 75 cents. I hope this info is helpful...

 

[-hh]

AquaBob once bubbled...


C'mon.... wing nuts are a wear item and an opportunity to make a mistake?

Yes. Everything that moves is a wear item and everything that has an assembly/disassembly element is a mistake opportunity: there are never any exceptions, only degrees of susceptibility.

I'd like to meet the man that could wear out a wing nut, or assemble it wrong.

The specific failure modes can include, but are not limited to:

- lost or forgotten fastener(s)
- damaged threads (accidental cross-threading)/nut
- damaged threads (incl. due to cross-threading)/bolt
- worn threads/nut
- worn threads/bolt
- stripped threads (nut or bolt); often due to overtorquing
- fastener(s) failure due to overtorquing
- separation due to undertorqued fastener(s) working loose
- inability to assemble due to damage: bent/warped bolt
- inability to assemble due to damage: bent/warped nut

Accidental cross-threading becomes more likely over time as the thread pattern gets worn through use, but I think that accidental loss of the noncaptive fastener is the most likely basic failure mode.

BTW, wing nuts are generally identified in a design as a means to try to prevent accidental overtorquing. But that's not foolproof: we've all pulled out pliers or channel locks to increase our leverage, haven't we?

Susceptibility to cross-threading generally can generally be examined based on the product's thread pitchart diameter relationship: a fine thread on a large diameter is generally more susceptible (example: the screw-on filters for your SLR camera lenses become more problemmatic as lens diameter increases...I find lenses greater that 74mm to often be a pain...it takes some feel to get them on right, without cross-threading).

Similarly, I've also had dive gear fasteners literally wear out their threads due to assembly/disassembly to the point that they would no longer reliably hold, thus requiring their replacement. One in particular is a knurled top bolt (knurls providing the same basic function as a wingnut) that attaches my strobe tray onto my Nikonos UW camera, although there is a contributing factor of dielectric materials. A SS fastener won't solve that problem because its dielectric properties would reverse the flow and make the camera body the sacrificial anode instead of the bolt.

More likely failure points are the plastic buckles and dangling straps associated with adjustable harnesses.

Do you consider it to be more likely because they're a "lesser" design, or more likely because there's more of them? There's many, many more QD's out there than STA/wingnuts to be the opportunity, just like there's more PADI divers.

Very true. But lets not go overboard with the 'Safety is Paramount' argument.

Agreed. I've mentioned it because QD's and Wingnuts are sufficiently objectively similar such that it is not logical to claim a meaningful differentiation between them. As such, if one is too risky for one's personal "Safety is Paramount" position, then they both must go.

Similarly, if the one is considered acceptable, then they both are; objectively, its a "either both, or neither" when it comes to deciding if the risk they represent are acceptable or not.

I don't particularly care which way people go (both or neither), because the error is in trying to split them. That's all.

Perhaps PADI should offer a Wing Nut specialty course??? Wadda ya think? Anyone? Anyone?

They already do: some people say its called "Divemaster"


-hh

 

[-hh]

SeaJay once bubbled...

Wanna know what REAL divers really want from a BC? Well...

1. They want it to never fail.
2. They want it to not cost them a fortune ($505 for "top of the line" is a fantastic deal... You want a $1000 BC? Check the Mares HUB system and the Seaquest Pro QD Limited).
3. The rest of the information can be found here: http://www.bftwave.net/lcscuba/homebc.html


...Now, if you're really interested in arguing these points, I would suggest getting certified and going diving. Check it out for yourself before spouting off this junk.

...And before you go and try to blow smoke and tell me about the tens of thousands of dives you've had... Or the decades of diving you've done (as you've implied), let me just tell you this... I see B.S. from a million miles away, and won't hesitate to call you on it.

Nobody knows a diver - or, in your case, not - like another diver.

Well SeaJay, you're free to toss your BS claims that I'm not a diver, but the facts of the matter are otherwise. Granted, I don't dive as much as I'd like to, but anyone with reasonable skill in using the Search function here and Google can go learn the truth instead of accepting your word as gospel...and I invite them to do so.


And the basic problem with your arguements are twofold:


1) "Never" requirements are phenominally naive.

2) The HUB system is not a $1000 BC, but a complete system for that price - you should have known better than to even suggest it as one of the mythical $1K BC's that you claim exists.

So I suggest you try again: using LeisurePro's website, I don't even see more than a handful of BC's that cost more than $600 out of over a hundred listed BC products.


Overall, you've ignored the Pareto Principle and how it should be applied here: the tail never wags the dog. You've also apparently never learned the saying, "Better is the Enemy of Good Enough" and what it really means in diving.


-hh

"A real diver transcends his equipment".

 

[SeaJay]

HH, the top of the line HUB system is retailing for $1200.

The SeaQuest Pro QD Limited has an MSRP of $899.

Leisurepro... As much as I like them... Doesn't sell at MSRP; in fact, much of their equipment is gray market, so comparing a gray market price on Leisurepro to the MSRP on a Halcyon bp/wings isn't a fair comparison.

MSRP on the top of the line Halcyon bp/wings is $505. MSRP on the Pro QD Limited is $900. The HUB has an MSRP of well over the $1k mark, but includes about $350 worth of regulators too.

I'll end this post by saying that if you believe that a wingnut is a major point of failure, then you need help. If your buddy inadvertantly places his tank on your wingnut, it's not a problem. If your buddy inadvertently places his tank on your plastic buckle, then your plastic buckle is done for... Which means you aren't going to be doing any more diving that day.

...Which is really obvious to anyone who's ever been diving... I've seen many plastic buckles break or otherwise "bite it." Heck, I've seen them smashed in the tailgate of the pickup truck on the way to the dive site.

These things don't happen to wingnuts.

The fact that you see these as equal possible failure points shows me that you've got little experience and might not even dive at all.

Baths and showers don't count as dives, hh.

 

[jplacson]

:lol: you're funny Seajay!!!

Anyway, I was wondering why everyone thought I dove dry when I mentioned trilams... sorry for the confusion...

http://www.hendersonusa.com/product_trilam.html

It's a fleece suit by Henderson, known before as the Black Maxx... so I'm neutral at surface and at depth. I think the Titaniums claim the same features...never tried them though.

I dive steel tanks cuz I rent, and most of the dive shops here rent steel tanks.

Now with the rigs I've dove... I KNOW that the SS plate is too heavy since at 4# I sink pretty fast on a descent.

My concern was that should I dive an AL tank in the future... or in some other resort that rents AL only, I should be able to offset the additional buoyancy with just trim weights right (I'm trying to avoid the whole weightbelt thing) ... about 6-8# total should do it? So 3-4# in each trim pocket... I'm thinking 8#, even with an AL tank might be too heavy for me already... and doesn't having trim weights, help in a face-up position at surface as well? (Well, that's according to Halcyon's site) All I have to do is compensate for the AL tank right?

Sorry for all the questions... and I think you're up to a $1.50 already!!! Thanks for all you help and time!

 

[SeaJay]

jplacson once bubbled...

I was wondering why everyone thought I dove dry when I mentioned trilams... sorry for the confusion...

http://www.hendersonusa.com/product_trilam.html

It's a fleece suit by Henderson, known before as the Black Maxx... so I'm neutral at surface and at depth. I think the Titaniums claim the same features...never tried them though.

Very interesting. Yeah, "trilaminates" are typically dry suits... Sorry for the assumption.

I have no experience with the suit you're wearing... It sounds interesting, though. The reduced buoyancy effects I can imagine are quite nice. Does it keep you as warm as say, a 3 mil tropical suit?

I dive steel tanks cuz I rent, and most of the dive shops here rent steel tanks.

That's interesting, too... Around the Southeast and the Caribbean, AL tanks are the "norm" and it's very difficult at times to find steels for rent.

My training has encouraged AL tanks when diving wet because the tank "passes through neutral" as it empties. In freshwater, this equates to -3 pounds full and -3 pounds empty... Meaning that for much of the dive, the tank is pretty much very neutral. This prevents undesireable trim problems that can occur with heavier tanks... Like being "top heavy," especially in a wetsuit. Think about it... If your wetsuit is buoyant and your tanks are negative, then if you get sideways to enter a restriction or upside-down to look into a hole or whatever... It can take you "on over" and "turtle" you. The idea is to keep your weight and your buoyancy close together and near your physical centerline to prevent this.

...Which also explains why you'd want to use a steel tank with a drysuit. Since the drysuit has controllable buoyancy (and can be "tuned" to near neutrality) then you'd be more able to utilize a heavier tank... And in the meantime, require less weight on a weight belt or whatever.

However it works - and your situation is going to be unique, like everyone else's - the idea is to keep your center of gravity and your center of buoyancy close together to prevent "opinionated BC's." Diving with as little weight as possible not only streamlines you more, but also makes any "force" difference between the center of buoyancy and the center of gravity much less, and easier to manage underwater.

Now with the rigs I've dove... I KNOW that the SS plate is too heavy since at 4# I sink pretty fast on a descent.

Yeah, I can imagine. If your suit is relatively neutral, then diving a steel tank - very negative - and a SS backplate - also very negative - could make you end up overweighted without even taking on a single ounce of lead. I've dived this type of rig before, and it's not pretty... Especially when *all* of the weight is behind you like that. It makes you very suceptible to turtling... Not to mention that you're overweighted badly, having to swim with a lot of air in your BC, and without ditchable weight - an issue if you can't swim your rig up. A bladder failure, empty tank, or first stage failure would stick you to the bottom... And you could neither swim it up or ditch. Welcome to your new permanent home.

My concern was that should I dive an AL tank in the future... or in some other resort that rents AL only, I should be able to offset the additional buoyancy with just trim weights right (I'm trying to avoid the whole weightbelt thing)

Yes, you could do that.

You know, bp's are cheap... They sell for less than $100. You might want to try the AL plate first, if that's what your instinct is telling you, and switch to a SS plate later if you find you've got too much lead on your body.

I share your distaste for weight belts... And have helped to develop these little puppies....

http://members.optusnet.com.au/dscarlett/integrated_weights/

A friend of mine is making them, and is selling a pair for about $50. They look like they might work well... I'll let you know when I get mine in.

... about 6-8# total should do it? So 3-4# in each trim pocket... I'm thinking 8#, even with an AL tank might be too heavy for me already... and doesn't having trim weights, help in a face-up position at surface as well? (Well, that's according to Halcyon's site) All I have to do is compensate for the AL tank right?

Yes.

Your question isn't so simple to answer on the internet, though... It's more of a "trial and error" type thing... But I think you've got the basic idea down.

I think that if I were buying a "wet" rig again, I'd want to dive an AL80 with a SS plate if I was diving wet. For me, I dive with no ditchable weight in freshwater with that rig and I dive with six pounds of ditchable in salt. I find that my center of gravity and center of buoyancy are close together with this rig, and so my trim and buoyancy are nicely tuned.

You have a slightly different situation, though... It sounds like your wetsuit is less buoyant than mine, and it's the "norm" to have better access to steel tanks than AL ones. Therefore, you might have good luck with the AL plate with a Pioneer 27, your trilam wetsuit, and the steel tank. (While the steel tank will place your center of gravity further back than an AL one would, your center of buoyancy is also moved back because of the less buoyant suit.)

The bottom line is that you need to know what the ultimate rig is going to be for you. I believe that you might be able to do the steels in your trilam suit... But I recommend getting it and then putting the rig together and jumping in with a near-empty tank. Do the PADI "weight test"... That is, "near empty tank, totally empty wing, full breath of air (and hold it)." You should float at the surface at eye level (the water bisecting your mask). If you don't float this way, add or subtract weight from there and see what happens. Then you'll know exactly where you stand.

By the way... Are you sure your tanks are steel? Last I looked, steel 80's weren't real common. The weight that you're using, though, is indicative of steel if you really are diving in salt water... And you're not using any other piece of equipment that's significantly negative.

Sorry for all the questions... and I think you're up to a $1.50 already!!! Thanks for all you help and time!

Naw, that's cool. I'd rather talk about this than argue with -hh anyway.

 

[jplacson]

SeaJay once bubbled...


Very interesting. Yeah, "trilaminates" are typically dry suits... Sorry for the assumption.

I have no experience with the suit you're wearing... It sounds interesting, though. The reduced buoyancy effects I can imagine are quite nice. Does it keep you as warm as say, a 3 mil tropical suit?

Yup it equals a 3mm... it's sooo easy to don. It's like putting on a pair of socks. some people don't like it cuz it screws up your buoyancy if you were taught using a neoprene suit... I love it cuz it gets rid of at least 4-6lbs... most of my dive buddies use around 6-8lbs using a 3mm suit. I dive with 4# and I'm thinking of ditching it all together since I sink pretty fast when descending. I could get away with 2# but seriously...that's technically just trim weights, and that's not exactly worth wearing a weight belt for!!! :lol: I think I'm safe wearing 2# as non-ditchable!!!

That's interesting, too... Around the Southeast and the Caribbean, AL tanks are the "norm" and it's very difficult at times to find steels for rent.

However it works - and your situation is going to be unique, like everyone else's - the idea is to keep your center of gravity and your center of buoyancy close together to prevent "opinionated BC's." Diving with as little weight as possible not only streamlines you more, but also makes any "force" difference between the center of buoyancy and the center of gravity much less, and easier to manage underwater.

By the way... Are you sure your tanks are steel? Last I looked, steel 80's weren't real common. The weight that you're using, though, is indicative of steel if you really are diving in salt water... And you're not using any other piece of equipment that's significantly negative.

Ya, steel is still pretty much the norm here..probably cuz they've had them for years... Im sure newer dive shops use AL tanks...specially for tourists and all... I was never really picky since I never had any real 'tank' problems... I rent all my gear so my biggest gripe is the BC riding up. Now that I'm getting the Halcyon, that will improve my dive experience 10x already... I can live with whatever tank they have...as long as it works and holds air! :lol:

 

[AquaBob]

-hh once bubbled...
--- responding to a statment regarding the improbability of a wingnut failure ---

Yes. Everything that moves is a wear item and everything that has an assembly/disassembly element is a mistake opportunity: there are never any exceptions, only degrees of susceptibility.




The specific failure modes can include, but are not limited to:

- lost or forgotten fastener(s)
- damaged threads (accidental cross-threading)/nut
- damaged threads (incl. due to cross-threading)/bolt
- worn threads/nut
- worn threads/bolt
- stripped threads (nut or bolt); often due to overtorquing
- fastener(s) failure due to overtorquing
- separation due to undertorqued fastener(s) working loose
- inability to assemble due to damage: bent/warped bolt
- inability to assemble due to damage: bent/warped nut

...
-hh

Man I can't believe I fell for this one....and me, without a billygoat to feed him.

At least I'm in good company... looks like SeaJay fell off the wagon for this one as well.

Hey SeaJay... I'm sorry I let you down man.... If you ever feel the need to respond to one of these again... Please PM me... I'll try to talk you through it. Just promise you'll do the same for me.


'One troll is too many and a thousand are not enough.'

 

[SeaJay]

"Troll?"

Shoot... I think you're right.

Yeppers, looks like I fell for that one hook, line and sinker. The guy can't possibly be serious.

 

[jplacson]

Seajay, local Halcyon dealer can give me a complete rig for US$550 (that's with the MC pack) ... I think that's pretty ok... considering shipping to the Philippines.

Is $505 the lowest you've seen for a complete rig online? What's the lowest a complete Halcyon rig can go (including MC storage..no BC pocket or lift device)