cheap halcyon gear

[-hh]

SeaJay once bubbled...
HH, the top of the line HUB system is retailing for $1200.

The SeaQuest Pro QD Limited has an MSRP of $899.

And yet even a $899 MSRP still isn't your mythical "$1000 BC" as claimed.

Leisurepro... As much as I like them... Doesn't sell at MSRP; in fact, much of their equipment is gray market, so comparing a gray market price on Leisurepro to the MSRP on a Halcyon bp/wings isn't a fair comparison.

Most people don't really give a darn about nuances of graymarket or MSRP's: what they care about is the Real World "STREET PRICE".

You've reported that the Halycon's Street Price is ~$505...ooops $550 with MC... and you've said that this is about same as its MSRP.

ScubaPro is similarly notorious in not discounting from MSRP, and the Street Price on its ~BP/Wings/WI "KnightHawk" BC is ~$550.

(Gosh, zero cost savings


For most other brands, Street Price is often significantly discounted from MSRP. For example, the TUSA Liberator's Street Price (as reported by Leisurepro) is ~$200...roughly half its MSRP.

Now I know that Leisurepro has its critics. But its useful as a reference point of convenience for Street Prices. If you want to suggest a "more realistic" retailer as an alternative reference point of convenience for Street Price estimates, be my guest.

I'll end this post by saying that if you believe that a wingnut is a major point of failure, then you need help.

I'm afraid that you're missed my message...again.

The wingnut is not some amazingly infallable piece of equipment because nothing is. Yes, they're pretty rugged, but the individual component reliability isn't as important as the system's overall reliability, and that takes into account more than just one individual component.

If your buddy inadvertently places his tank on your plastic buckle, then your plastic buckle is done for... Which means you aren't going to be doing any more diving that day.

Plastic buckle, as in a weightbelt buckle? That's not the same critter as a Quick Disconnect. Are you trying to change the subject away from QD's? (FWIW, I don't use Plastic Buckles on weightbelts, but for reasons other than potential breakage).

...Which is really obvious to anyone who's ever been diving...

Attacking the messenger instead of the message discredits you.


First, "anyone who's ever been diving" knows that a broken QD can usually be temporarily repaired with a simple Zip Tie.

Next, "anyone who's ever been diving" should know better than to ever allow their gear to get smashed in the tailgate of a pickup truck, or other forms of gross carelessness.

Sure, accidents happen, and that's why we carry a box of repair part goodies. And "anyone who's ever been diving" has one, and more experienced divers not only knows every item in his box, but also exactly why he's carrying it.

The fact that you see these as equal possible failure points shows me that you've got little experience and might not even dive at all.

Attacking the messenger instead of the message discredits you.

But thank you for finally recognizing the "equal possible failure points". That's merely the first step...not the only step.

The second step is to assess the reliability of each possible failure mode. In the case of SS wingnuts, yes, they are generally better than plastic QD's.

The third step is to determine opportunity (how frequently during each failure possibility applies). A wingnut is constantly stressed during a dive, which means that it has many more failure opportunites than you may have otherwise suspected.

The fourth step is roll them up, combining the above to get at the overall System Reliabilty. Yes, having good, reliable components is a good start, but its not enough by itself because its merely one small piece and not the total system.

So...if you're one of those people who is looking at eliminating fasteners to improve system reliability, the facts are that both QD's and Wingnuts are fasteners and should be treated as such. IMO, this is unnecessary for a single tank system.

Baths and showers don't count as dives, hh.

Neither do high post counts, SeaJay.


-hh

 

[Boogie711]

I'm new to this particular discussion - but I simply cannot believe that anyone would have the... the... balls, the audacity... I don't know... to consider putting a Stainless Steel wingnut and a plastic buckle in the same category.

Dude - I don't know what color your planet is, but I want some of what you're having.

I publicly challenge you to produce 1 percent of the failure incident reports of a steel wingnut in dive conditions, compared to plastic buckles and stuff found on a traditional BC. Just one percent.

Do you also believe in black helicopters???

 

[SeaJay]

Hey, -hh! Where ya been all weekend? Did ya get any good diving in?

-hh once bubbled...

And yet even a $899 MSRP still isn't your mythical "$1000 BC" as claimed.

Plus tax in most States is $954 out the door... Close enough.

Most people don't really give a darn about nuances of graymarket or MSRP's: what they care about is the Real World "STREET PRICE".

Agreed, but that still doesn't change the fact that you were comparing MSRP of one product to the gray market price of another. If you'd like to do that, then consider that I once saw a "brand new - never used" Halcyon bp/wing sell for just $202 on Ebay.

If you want to be fair - and I suggest it to regain some of your lost credit - then it's only fair to compare MSRP to MSRP, gray market to gray market, and used to used.

I'm afraid that you're missed my message...again.

I didn't "miss your message." I'm simply of a different opinion than you.

The wingnut is not some amazingly infallable piece of equipment because nothing is. Yes, they're pretty rugged, but the individual component reliability isn't as important as the system's overall reliability, and that takes into account more than just one individual component.

Cut it any way you want... The point you're making is that wingnuts are subject to failure, and about as often as a plastic quick release buckle. I disagree, and can't possibly understand how you think otherwise. How often, exactly, have you seen a wingnut fail?

Plastic buckle, as in a weightbelt buckle? That's not the same critter as a Quick Disconnect. Are you trying to change the subject away from QD's? (FWIW, I don't use Plastic Buckles on weightbelts, but for reasons other than potential breakage).

No, -hh... We're still on the same topic. We're talking the same "critter"... A plastic quick release buckle. You know, the kind that they put on the play "seatbelt" on a little kid's push-cart.

Attacking the messenger instead of the message discredits you.

Apparently you feel attacked. I did not attack you... I pointed out that it does not appear that you speak with experience.

First, "anyone who's ever been diving" knows that a broken QD can usually be temporarily repaired with a simple Zip Tie.

Yes, we're all aware... And we don't feel that it's the best solution.

Next, "anyone who's ever been diving" should know better than to ever allow their gear to get smashed in the tailgate of a pickup truck, or other forms of gross carelessness.

Yes, yes... You're right... It shouldn't happen... But I've seen it happen more often than a wingnut failure.

Are we done?

Sure, accidents happen, and that's why we carry a box of repair part goodies. And "anyone who's ever been diving" has one, and more experienced divers not only knows every item in his box, but also exactly why he's carrying it.

<Yawn> So you're saying that your save-a-dive kit should have a whole bunch of QD (buckles) in it, so that when my buddy puts his tank down on my QD (buckle) and cracks it, I can cut it off and sew on another?

But thank you for finally recognizing the "equal possible failure points". That's merely the first step...not the only step.

What has been your experience diving, -hh? Specifically, what sort of experience do you have with a bp/wings (since that's what our conversation was originally about anyway)? BTW, that's not an attack... It's an inquiry.

The second step is to assess the reliability of each possible failure mode. In the case of SS wingnuts, yes, they are generally better than plastic QD's.

Aha! Can you remind me why we're debating then?

The third step is to determine opportunity (how frequently during each failure possibility applies). A wingnut is constantly stressed during a dive, which means that it has many more failure opportunites than you may have otherwise suspected.

Ah, yes... And with that logic, the Golden Gate Bridge, also a constantly stressed, man-made object, has many more failure opportunities that I might have otherwise suspected.

I'll still put my money on the concept that it'll be there tomorrow.

By the way, plastic QD (buckles) aren't immune to being constantly stressed either.

The fourth step is roll them up, combining the above to get at the overall System Reliabilty. Yes, having good, reliable components is a good start, but its not enough by itself because its merely one small piece and not the total system.

...And what really sucks is having the total system fail because of one small piece.

Neither do high post counts, SeaJay.


-hh

Repeat after me... "Attacking the messenger instead of the message discredits you."

 

[jamiei]

I'm not saying wingnuts are a failure point... but I notice that almost every dive that mine work their way loose and I tighten the heck out of them... is there something I'm missing?

 

[SeaJay]

Now ya did it. You've exposed the Wingnut Conspiracy.

I like lockwashers... Or in the case of using a STA on a single tank rig, a nylock instead of a wingnut.

...But any way you cut it, the idea - and I think we all agree - is to minimize the possibility of failure, especially when it comes to life support. Prior to that we were talking about trim and buoyancy and all sorts of good stuff.

Can we move away from the flamewar arena? We're mighty close...

 

[salty]

Can someone tell me why that if you can do a dive with a broken QD fixed with a zip tie why you need the QD in the first place

 

[-hh]

SeaJay once bubbled...
Hey, -hh! Where ya been all weekend? Did ya get any good diving in?

Actually, I was actually at home for a change. I've been spending most of this summer flying someplace on business. Last week was VA Beach (actually, NAVSEA - Dam Neck), and didn't have the free afternoon to go hit up one of the diveboats that operate out of Ruddy Inlet for a quickie.

Cut it any way you want... The point you're making is that wingnuts are subject to failure, and about as often as a plastic quick release buckle. I disagree, and can't possibly understand how you think otherwise. How often, exactly, have you seen a wingnut fail?

Sorry, but I did not say that Wingnuts fail literally as often as a QD. They are, however, of the same basic reliability class (eg, same rough order of magnitude for reliability), which is not quite the same thing.

And I've seen both QD's and Wingnuts fail - different quantities of each, but that's to be expected, for on a generic customer set, there's probably ~5 QD's for each wingnut present (just like there's more PADI divers than non-PADI divers). Overall, the failure rates for both are under 1%.

Apparently you feel attacked. I did not attack you... I pointed out that it does not appear that you speak with experience.

Sorry, but your statements have definitely been derogatory: "Nobody knows a diver - or, in your case, not - like another diver" was the start of it. And even though I invited you to go do a basic search, you apparently didn't bother, so you didn't find some of my UW photography such as this pic from 2002: http://tinyurl.com/lzm5

First, "anyone who's ever been diving" knows that a broken QD can usually be temporarily repaired with a simple Zip Tie.

Yes, we're all aware... And we don't feel that it's the best solution.

Of course a Zip isn't the best solution, but it is one that's good enough to save the dive. And a design configuration that facilitates field repairs is worth "two in the bush", particularly if it is designed to require no additional tools (example: an Ak47 rifle can be disassembled without any tools).

And for cheapskate divers, zip ties are extremely cheap: FWIW, how many spare bolts, lockwashers and wingnuts do you carry in your save-a-dive box and how much money do you have tied up in them? Afterall, we both know that SS fasteners aren't cheap.

Next, "anyone who's ever been diving" should know better than to ever allow their gear to get smashed in the tailgate of a pickup truck, or other forms of gross carelessness.

Yes, yes... You're right... It shouldn't happen... But I've seen it happen more often than a wingnut failure.

The claim of greater observed frequency is to be expected when there's more plastic bits versus wingnuts to which the risk is applied (just like there's more "bad" PADI divers because there's more of them). The real question is once you've normalized out that factor, are the per-unit/per-opportunity failure frequency rates really different, or not? If you put a wingnut on the end of an exposed strap like the QD, its going to see more hazard opportunities too. By the time you work it all out, you'll realize that QD's are really a lot more rugged than we give them credit for.

Are we done?

Possibly not. On your webpage (http://www.bftwave.net/lcscuba/homebc.html), you appear to fail to take into account how air moves within the BC bladder as diver orientation changes, particularly for the Jacket Style.

<Yawn> So you're saying that your save-a-dive kit should have a whole bunch of QD (buckles) in it, so that when my buddy puts his tank down on my QD (buckle) and cracks it, I can cut it off and sew on another?

Wrong. You zip tie it and go diving. A permanent repair can be deferred until you get home.

What has been your experience diving, -hh? Specifically, what sort of experience do you have with a bp/wings (since that's what our conversation was originally about anyway)? BTW, that's not an attack... It's an inquiry.

I started diving before there were Jacket Style BC's, and over the past 20+ years, I've dived with Jackets, Wings and Horsecollars, mostly in warmwater, but also as cold as 38F (before I got a drysuit).

During that time, I've also seen a lot of example of "hot product" marketing, and selling people things that are extreme overkill for what they objectively need, or outright snake oil. Do you recall the issues of _Skin Diver_ with the hot pink and lime yellow wetsuits on the cover? I do.

Insofar as Wings specifically, I think that they're the best available tool for diving doubles, but at the same time, I'll point out that most divers never dive doubles, so they run the risk of being poseur gear for tech wannabee's.

I've done a couple of hundred dives with more than one tank, often solo because I'm an UW photographer. These days, I generally only wear a single, because if you do your research, you'll eventually find paragraph 5.9.11.3.2 of MIL-STD-1472F (DoD Human Engineering Design Criteria Standard), which says that lugging around a big set of twins on land to go diving is pretty bad for your long-term health. It identified the recommended maximum single lift limit (of less than 3ft height, within 8 hours/male) as 87lbs, or about the weight of a good twin set w/weighted BP. But its kind of hard to only lift a set but once and actually go diving. So if you apply the repetitive lifts formula, at 7 lifts (<3 feet, within 8 hours), the limit drops to 37lbs, which is about what a single tank system weighs out at.

This reference pretty much explains why every local diver I personally know who dived with doubles and who is now over age 50 has suffered a back injury that was sufficiently debilitating such that they had to give up all diving entirely.

Personally, I want to go on diving for another 30 years, so that means that I must avoid twins (I've already had my "warning" back injury). And BP/wings simply aren't essential gear without twins.


My apologies if this is "deep"...my background is in Mechanical Engineering (multiple degrees), with professional application in R&D and "building stuff". FYI, you can grab a copy of MIL-STD-1472F online at URL: http://iac.dtic.mil/hsiac/Std_Hdbk.htm

Finally, I have an old Dacor doublehose in "wallhanger" condition, and my wife is pressuring me to clean out the garage. I haven't bothered to list it on EBay, yet, but I do have pic of it at URL: http://tinyurl.com/lzj8 if you know of anyone interested. No, I'm not selling my USD AquaMaster, because that doublehose still works!


-hh

 

[-hh]

salty once bubbled...
Can someone tell me why that if you can do a dive with a broken QD fixed with a zip tie why you need the QD in the first place

Because its easier to slip out of a BC with QD's than a BC without them.

For example, I never pop my QD's when I'm diving off of a boat where I'm able to climb back up the ladder with my gear on.

But when sloshing around in (rough) seas next to a boat/RIB where you need to hand your gear up and then climb onboard separately, if you don't have a QD to pop, you can't get your BC off until you let go of the boat/tagline. This is when you can either drift away, or get smashed by the side/transom (and Murphy's Law says that you'll get smashed and then drift away).

If you have a QD to pop, you don't have to let go of the boat/tag while getting your gear off.

What works well for me is to hold on with the right hand, and release the waist, and then pop the _left_ shoulder's QD. This means that the gear's last loop is the right shoulder loop and its being held captive on my right arm, secured between my body and the boat/tag. As I pull in on the tag to move in to the boat, this hauls my gear in too (first), and presents it in front of me for the boat tender to retrieve. As the tender grabs the tank valve, my right arm slides out & free. Meantime, I'm pushing with my left, then both hands, to help him with the lift out of the water, and I then have both hands & feet free to contend with keeping myself clear of the boat/transom/motor/etc.

The WKPP (where DIR came from) doesn't have many diveboats in their Florida caves, so they don't have the need for the QD in their environment, so they eliminated it as a potential failure point. That's appropriate within their operational environment, but not outside of it.


-hh

 

[SeaJay]

-hh once bubbled...

On your webpage (http://www.bftwave.net/lcscuba/homebc.html), you appear to fail to take into account how air moves within the BC bladder as diver orientation changes, particularly for the Jacket Style.

I don't. Instead I assume an absolute, and that's that the bladders are all filled to their maximum capacity. Every picture shows the same thing. And in that instance, there is no shifting of air in the BC bladder.

Now, if the bladder's only full, say, 10%, then of course there's going to be some shifting... But if you use my example to draw out each circumstance, you'll find that overall, shifting is something that should be avoided... Which is another reason why not to have the bladder "wrap around" the diver, but instead be situated only on one side.

Wrong. You zip tie it and go diving. A permanent repair can be deferred until you get home.

Okay, but that's not what you said. You said to keep "QD's" in your save-a-dive kit.

Do you recall the issues of _Skin Diver_ with the hot pink and lime yellow wetsuits on the cover? I do.

Yes.

In fact, I may still have some sitting around here... '86 was a good year...

Insofar as Wings specifically, I think that they're the best available tool for diving doubles, but at the same time, I'll point out that most divers never dive doubles, so they run the risk of being poseur gear for tech wannabee's.

Well, I don't agree... I think they have their advantages even with a single tank.

But hey, that's just an opinion... And I understand that yours is different.

Waddaya say we just go diving?

 

[SeaJay]

-hh once bubbled...

Because its easier to slip out of a BC with QD's than a BC without them.

I don't find that to be true.

But when sloshing around in (rough) seas next to a boat/RIB where you need to hand your gear up and then climb onboard separately, if you don't have a QD to pop, you can't get your BC off until you let go of the boat/tagline. This is when you can either drift away, or get smashed by the side/transom (and Murphy's Law says that you'll get smashed and then drift away).

If you have a QD to pop, you don't have to let go of the boat/tag while getting your gear off.

I dive from boats almost exclusively and I've never wanted a "QD." In fact, I can't remember the last time I handed my life support to anyone. It's always come out of the water with me, even in 8' seas.

But if I did want to remove my gear or replace it, it can be done with ease... I don't see the problem here...

What works well for me is to hold on with the right hand, and release the waist, and then pop the _left_ shoulder's QD. This means that the gear's last loop is the right shoulder loop and its being held captive on my right arm, secured between my body and the boat/tag. As I pull in on the tag to move in to the boat, this hauls my gear in too (first), and presents it in front of me for the boat tender to retrieve. As the tender grabs the tank valve, my right arm slides out & free. Meantime, I'm pushing with my left, then both hands, to help him with the lift out of the water, and I then have both hands & feet free to contend with keeping myself clear of the boat/transom/motor/etc.

And you think this is simpler or safer than exiting the water while wearing your gear? Or just ducking out of it?

The WKPP (where DIR came from) doesn't have many diveboats in their Florida caves, so they don't have the need for the QD in their environment, so they eliminated it as a potential failure point. That's appropriate within their operational environment, but not outside of it.


-hh

Your opinion.

All the DIR divers I've seen dive without "QD's" in all environments.