Cheap Bastard Divers

[RJP]

Gee, I didn't have one for my OW classes and neither did anyone else in my class. Yes, everyone does need a depth guage but if you are all going down with the instructor for a pre-ordained amount of time in an OW class, it is just BS nickel and diming the customer to tell them it is required in that class.

After an OW class, yes, you do need a timing device.

Perhaps that title of this thread should be changed from "Cheap Bastard Divers" to "We'll Screw You If We Can, LDS'"

That's great if you want to train people that SOMEONE ELSE is responsible for tracking their dive time, but what happens the first time that someone dives without an instructor and wonders "Who's gonna track the time for me?" By your assertion there's no need for the student diver to carry an alt reg, since the instructor will have one. No need to carry a depth gauge, since the instructor will have one. No need to carry any cutting instruments, since the instructor will have one. No need to have dive tables, since the instructor will have one. Heck, no need to plan the dives since the instructor will do that.

Training someone to be an autonomous diver who can plan, execute, and properly log OW dives (especially critical for planning and executing repetitive dives) on their own WITHOUT requiring them to actually do that in training - including having gear appropriate to the task - is foolhardy!

I'm not saying you need to buy some expensive bottom timer either. It's not about selling more gear. Any cheap plastic $19 watch that can survive the planned depth is fine. But without a timing device you are not appropriately geared for an OW dive.

 

[Stu S.]

Any cheap plastic $19 watch that can survive the planned depth is fine. But without a timing device you are not appropriately geared for an OW dive.

That's not cheap, that's smart. I used one of those Casios for years. These days, you can buy a number of basic dive computers for less than the cost of a "bottom timer" plus a depth gauge. And, if you like using tables, put in into "gauge" mode.

 

[pir8]

I still use a Casio for timing skills underH2O

 

[imasinker]

To err is human... to complain is more human... to hear divers errantly complain is to be expected.

Are divers cheap? some are - some are not. It's the ones who are that are diving marginally safe gear bought from Ebay or models that have been sitting in a warehouse from the likes of Leisurepro for years.

The non-cheap divers buy top quality gear from great dealers (be they on-line or local.) They pay a little more for current, first quality goods from people who stand behind what they sell and are there to assist them with their purchases.

I usually ask people who have a problem with their gear where they bought it - and almost inevidably they bought it second hand or from Leisurepro. When they ask me to help them with their problem, I politely explain that I don't touch inferior gear and that they got what they paid for.

Ok...So I know a young man ( kid ) he really likes scuba. Now his income is less than your average, since he works and goes to school. He doesn't have alot of money, but again wants to dive. He can't afford top of the line gear, but wants it. So like many other's in his case he tends to shop around get the best deals and sometimes picks up a great deal on good used equipment. I don't call him a cheap diver. Some people want to enjoy the sport but may not make as much income as it seems most of the people I have read post from in here do. They should still feel good enough to to get what they can with the understanding some things really need to be serviced and checked by a trained technician. Some of us have taken him under our wing and explained to him the importance of gear and and maintenance. Everyone has to start somewhere and we all know to start up with scuba is costly. Sometimes there are other reasons why people buy cheaper products. My first car wasn't new, but it got me to point a and be and was well serviced. Again sometimes we have to start somewhere. Not everyones cheap because they don't want to pay, some are because it's all they have.

 

[Bloor]

There's nothing wrong with seeking out a good deal. Paying whatever the first local dive shop you go to charges is just ridiculous. Find a good deal. Maybe your LDS can match it. Maybe not.

But the original poster is right, generally speaking.

I know people that don't have safety sausages because, "those things are like $30 and I won't use it."

Or they buy the most bottom of the line BC and gear because, "There's no point to that other expensive stuff."

I can understand being economical and diving on a budget. But some folks I know find out a good mask and snorkel runs more than $40 and they throw a tantrum about it.

I look at it like this...when the emergency finally happens and I get swept away in the current, how much would I pay in that exact moment for a signal sausage, or a dive alert etc.

Or ask yourself this, how much is going home to your wife and kids worth?

Not saying cheaper stuff will break and kill you. But to bring the post full circle, there's a difference between being a "cheap bastard" and being a smart consumer.

Best,
Robert

 

[ReefDiver7]

That's not a fair analogy. No one has to buy the expensive water, they get the choice to or not, but most folks do have to buy fuel.

Ever heard anyone at a Gas station complaining about the price of gas with a $8 a gallon bottle of water in their hand? ($1 a Pint, 8 pints in a gallon)

 

[bfw]

You make a good point, one which LP fans often make themselves. The source of the "problem" is the manufacturers, not the evil online retailer. Manufacturers like to play both sides of the fence, publicly supporting the LDS and encouraging customers to buy there while privately selling to LP where they are free of warranty obligations. .

Which is why I won't buy AquaLung or Scubapro products. If enough divers do the same, they'll stop playing that game.

 

[MeiLing]

I don't think I'd believe a thing Mei Ling says... she's obviously a manufacturer plant here on the board

I am not in any way affiliated any manufacturer. I've bought gear from mostly all of them, at the very best prices I could find. Some, I favored more than others, in past years due to their excellent warranty policy. ScubaPro replaced one of my BCD's 3 times in three years when the pocket seam began failing. I don't think that their warranty policy is as good as it used to be. I have an Oceanic computer that I had replaced for $150 under an upgrade policy to their newer model.

If anything, I have more of an affinity for the LDS. That doesn't mean that I am going to pay homage to one with poor service, shop owners that think they're entitled to my business, or those that gouge or overcharge me!

For the record, I have never bought any gear second hand. The reason being is that doing so voids the warranty. Given that a second hand set of gear will most likely need to be checked out and over-hauled after a purchase, it doesn't really make sense to do so. Would cost pretty much about the same, assuming the new stuff is reasonably priced in the first place.

If a shop has to price its gear so unreasonably to stay in business, that people tend to shop elsewhere, perhaps that shop shouldn't be in business. Just because you put out a shingle, doesn't mean that you are guaranteed customers.

If that means that I am a cheap, bastard diver, so be it! I will proudly wear that T-shirt opposed to the opposite, fool with $$$ to burn!

 

[El Orans]

But without a timing device you are not appropriately geared for an OW dive.

I have had dives where both of us had forgotten our computers... :blush: Knowing we'd be well within the NDL limits when diving to a maximum depth of 10M by the time our gauges would read 50 bar, we went in anyway.

 

[MeiLing]

That's great if you want to train people that SOMEONE ELSE is responsible for tracking their dive time, but what happens the first time that someone dives without an instructor and wonders "Who's gonna track the time for me?" By your assertion there's no need for the student diver to carry an alt reg, since the instructor will have one. No need to carry a depth gauge, since the instructor will have one. No need to carry any cutting instruments, since the instructor will have one. No need to have dive tables, since the instructor will have one. Heck, no need to plan the dives since the instructor will do that.

Training someone to be an autonomous diver who can plan, execute, and properly log OW dives (especially critical for planning and executing repetitive dives) on their own WITHOUT requiring them to actually do that in training - including having gear appropriate to the task - is foolhardy!

I'm not saying you need to buy some expensive bottom timer either. It's not about selling more gear. Any cheap plastic $19 watch that can survive the planned depth is fine. But without a timing device you are not appropriately geared for an OW dive.

Do you make them practice cutting themselves out of entanglements? Do you teach them to tell time underwater? Is the use of a watch different underwater than on the surface? When you have them calculate their max depth are you using a different formula and different time for every diver that you have in your class?

Generally, in an OW class, the teacher has the group calculate the max depth and and max time for the group.

You want to debate semantics, go right ahead. I've seen a very reputable shop certify thousands of divers for OW over many years without requiring a watch, a dive knife or gloves. And wow, nothing negative ever came of it! Furthermore, it was a shop that more than encouraged each student to understand the concepts, they were required to individually master them. However, this shop didn't do it by gouging folks. If you didn't pass the class, you weren't required to pay for another. You just joined the next class until you mastered the skills, whatever they were that you were lacking. If it was clear that it was never going to happen, you wound up being convinced that it wasn't for you. Didn't happen often, but there were a few. Most folks figure that out on their own.

It was also a shop that heavily encouraged you to dive with them by having a club of sorts. That was also not charged for. They encouraged you to hang around the shop on weekend mornings and buddy up with those going out. The shop owner created an environment where a great many of the students certified went on to higher certifications and phenomenal amounts of gear purchases. And those that were certified brought in their friends. And their friends brought in their friends. And so on and so on! And they were all happy to spend their money at this shop.

Say what you want, but waiting until the last minute to spring items on an OW student, that are of questionable need, is just BS.