Chandelier Cave - safe for AOW diver?

[mathauck0814]

The information you should take is that based on the description in previous posts you aren't even qualified to take the course that would qualify you to do that portion of this dive. You're two levels away.

 

[WimW]

In that case, why bother with any scuba training in the first place?

I suppose it all depends on whether you are willing to entrust responsibility for your life to another (unknown) diver, or whether you prefer to retain the responsibility in your own hands.

There's some good threads on that subject on Scubaboard, search; 'Trust Me Dives' or 'Whose Responsibility' or 'Self-Reliance'.

For what it's worth, I am not a cave diver. I am a technical diver...and a technical wreck diver...with several thousand dives in those environments, often in very tight spaces, zero viz, current and always in complete blackness. A very similar skill-set to cave diving granted, but I don't do caves because I'm not trained for that environment. One thing experience teaches you is not to 'negotiate' with yourself in order to make compromises that are a short-cut to proper training and safety preparedness.

Hmm, why would you call that a trust-me dive? I'm describing an emergency in which support from a buddy would be useful or needed. Many procedures taught in OW and AOW are based on help from your buddy, no?

As far as I understand it now, we basically agree that no one should be diving beyond their training. So the real question is: is Chandelier Cave a cave / cavern or an OW dive...

 

[kiming]

Hi all,

just wanted to verify with the people who have dived Chandelier Cave in Palau: is it safe without Cave training? It seems like it has so many air pockets it is pretty close to open water, but in light of the recent thread about the Ginnie Springs incident, I just wanted to make sure...

Wim

Each chamber has very large air pockets. The connecting passages are short (one minute swim?) and wide ( easily accommodate a buddy pair size by side). It is a shallow dive. I don't think I got deeper than 20 feet. Also, it is very clear and I don't recall silting or entanglement to be a concern.

 

[DevonDiver]

Hmm, why would you call that a trust-me dive?

Because, in any one of a dozen worst case scenarios, you would be unable to extract yourself from the situation without reliance on another. Cave training provides you with the skills, procedures, knowledge, psychological robustness and equipment necessary to survive without such reliance.

That is why PADI tell you not to do it - because they establish rules, recommendations and 'safe practices' which are directly attributable to the training they provide.

In a nutshell,

Training/Preparation/Equipment > Activity Risk = very safe, high comfort factor
Training/Preparation/Equipment = Activity Risk = reasonably safe, moderate comfort factor
Training/Preparation/Equipment < Activity Risk = unsafe, zero comfort factor

At no point is the support of another diver considered an adequate replacement for your own personal capability. You shouldn't rely on another. However, you should/could plan and conduct a dive so that mutual support provides a fail-safe. By relying on another in an emergency, you are shifting directly to your fail-safe, with no other alternatives and no other course of action should the fail-safe no proceed as hoped.

Using the logic of "I have a buddy with an AAS".... why not dive a CCR without training? Dive the Andrea Doria? Head on up the Ginnie Springs?

I will ask you a question - on the proposed dive, what would you do if your guide/buddy suffered a serious problem which rendered them ineffective, whilst also silting out the cavern and causing you to lose visibility and navigational awareness/direction of exit? Would you be able to get yourself out? Would you be able to rescue them (be a good buddy) also? With what level of certainty?

Many procedures taught in OW and AOW are based on help from your buddy, no?

All of which are based on the following scenarios/presumptions:

1) Direct access to the surface.
2) Not being lost/disorientated.
3) No restrictions/limitations on movement.
4) Divers within their comfort zone.
5) Divers within an environment in which they are trained and experienced.

Again... this is a futile process of negotiation, or as mathauck0814 called it 'rationalization'. Neither OW or AOW provides you with the skills, experience, equipment or other aspects needed to prepare or conduct dives within an overhead environment - either inside or beyond the light zone. THAT is why further training is provided in the form of cavern and cave courses.

It seems you are attempting to translate OW/AOW efficiency into a wider scope of diving. That's dangerous... and something that would only be done when not educated fully about the risks and realities of more advanced diving.

As far as I understand it now, we basically agree that no one should be diving beyond their training.

Correct. It's a simple principle, to preserve safety.

It's often repeated on the training courses: "Dive within your level of training and experience"... "Dive within your comfort level"..."Dive conservatively"... "Progressively increase your experience"...

So the real question is: is Chandelier Cave a cave / cavern or an OW dive...

I don't think that is a question at all.... unless you did your OW course in a cavern.... which you didn't. Which no-one else did either...

On your OW course.... was there a risk of silt-out, causing you to lose track of a small exit, presenting the risk of you wandering into a very enclosed space, or preventing you - at any time - having the option to ascend directly to the surface and egress from the water?


Sheck Exley wrote a very famous book about surviving in overhead environments. That book was written on the basis of extensive accident analysis - the lessons learned from accidents that really killed people. In that book, he summarized essential elements that allowed reasonable safety in caverns/caves. Those elements were kept VERY simple - so that they would be easy to understand...and hard to rationalize/negotiate against. I'll ask you to consider these - and decide honestly and prudently how many of them you would have covered, should you do the dive proposed:

THE FIVE RULES OF SAFE CAVE AND CAVERN DIVING
Be trained in cavern or cave diving and dive within the limits of your training.
Always run a single continuous guideline from the open water.
Always reserve at least two-thirds of your beginning gas supply for the exit.
Do not dive too deep. Stay within your training, experience level and ability.
Always use a minimum three lights per diver..

 

[DevonDiver]

Each chamber has very large air pockets. The connecting passages are short (one minute swim?) and wide ( easily accommodate a buddy pair size by side). It is a shallow dive. I don't think I got deeper than 20 feet. Also, it is very clear and I don't recall silting or entanglement to be a concern.

Which makes it a cave dive, beyond even a cavern dive.

Cavern Dive:

1) Within the Light Zone - divers illuminated by light penetrating from a visible exit point at all times. FAIL.
2) Within 40m/130ft Linear of the Surface (open water - not an air-pocket). FAIL.
3) No restrictions (two divers pass side-by-side). PASS.

Congrats - it fails as a cavern dive in 2 out of 3 criteria. It's a cave dive.

Lots of caves have breathable air-pockets. So do some of the wrecks I dive. People have still died in them. That seems to be the only 'rationalization' for doing this dive - and it's a false one.

3 connecting passages? Each a 1 minute fin to passage? That's a pretty serious penetration from the exit.

Silting and entanglement is always a concern... when you have x minutes to swim to exit an overhead.

Unless the cavern is bare rock, then there is silt. It might not be 'easily' kicked up - but then, you might have an unrelated problem that causes the diver/s to make rough contact with it. Even if no silt is present - what is the cavern made of? What rock type? What risk of crumbling? Same for entanglement... are the divers carrying reels? Are they using reels? Even if not carried, what happens if a reel comes unlocked and unspools into a giant floating birds nest? What happens if previous divers were using a reel and left line floating inside a passageway?

How long do you have to free yourself, before you hit minimum gas to make it to the exit? Even if sharing air? Do you know your SAC? What about your elevated/stressed SAC? Does your dive guide know your SAC? Has he compensated for it in his gas planning? Has he done any gas planning? Or is he 'winging it'? What is your turn-point? Does that allow for equipment/reg failure and egress sharing air at hyper-ventilated respiration rates?

What if you lose light? What if your buddy doesn't see you..and heads off away from you? What if you have an air/equipment issue at that time? What if your buddy loses light? What if you can't find him in the dark? Will you go? Where will you go? Will you remember the route in the dark? How will you be sure you are going to the exit? Or deeper into the cavern? Or will you stay put? For how long?

Who cares what the depth is?... if you haven't got air 10cm deep, you still drown.

Who cares if it has air-pockets?... if you still have to swim through connecting passages without a surface to get to the exit?

Who cares if it has wide passages?... if you can't tell your direction because there is no light?

 

[miketsp]

..snip..
For what it's worth, even intro to cave divers aren't allowed to do the kind of restrictions that the "chamber 5" description (above) notes.
..snip..

I think you're making an assumption that I also made initially. That the entrance to chamber 5 is underwater. After reading some more and looking at some videos on YouTube I got the impression that the entrance to chamber 5 is just plain wet (mud) and that chamber 5 itself is actually all above water level.

http://www.samstours.com/divesites18.html
Dive Site:
&#8226; A Cave system made up of five separate, connecting chambers with air pockets (4 are water-filled)

Which makes it a cave dive, beyond even a cavern dive.

Cavern Dive:

1) Within the Light Zone - divers illuminated by light penetrating from a visible exit point at all times. FAIL.
2) Within 40m/130ft Linear of the Surface (open water - not an air-pocket). FAIL.
3) No restrictions (two divers pass side-by-side). PASS.

Congrats - it fails as a cavern dive in 2 out of 3 criteria. It's a cave dive.

Lots of caves have breathable air-pockets. So do some of the wrecks I dive. People have still died in them. That seems to be the only 'rationalization' for doing this dive - and it's a false one.

1) One of the dive logs I read says that after the dive group kicked up a lot of silt so no one had any idea which way was out, they are just covered their lights and the blue glow was the exit - although I've no idea which chamber they were in. And they were certainly not "illuminated" by the light entering.
2) From what was said by earlier posters the chambers are in fact connected to the outside air - so they're not technically "air-pockets". The air is being renewed and is not contaminated. None of the risks of coming up inside an air-pocket in a wreck or closed cave. Except in the swim-throughs you could surface and wait indefinitely.

I would certainly have issues with taking a "diver of any level" into a 1 minute swim-through but given the many pictures of snorkelers in the inner chambers I find this length hard to accept.

See:
http://www.samstours.com/images/site-chandelier.gif

 

[RikRaeder]

I asked this same question a few years back (before diving with Sam's) and there was a lot of helpful, useful, informed information on that thread (but I'm too lazy to track it down for you).
I don't think anyone has died there (cave or non-cave certified) and while I am usually a guy to adhere to training levels, cert guidelines, etc. I also acknowledge that the world is not black and white, and that exceptions exist.
I'd say go for it and if the entrance freaks you out, turn around and surface. It was an interesting excursion (not much of a dive). Oh, and if you enter be sure to stay off the bottom (as it's an extremely deep silt layer). Plenty of space to avoid the bottom there.

 

[fdog]

<disclaimer> I am not a caver.

I've dove Chandelier Cave. It was advertised as a fun dive that was very benign. My thoughts after the dive:

• The first chamber has natural daylight and is a cavern.
• The rest of the chambers are cave dives.
• I watched a low-time rototiller turn the 3rd chamber into a silt out.
• The tops of the caverns are not smooth. It is possible to ascend into a hard ceiling under water, and no clue which way to the air pocket.
• There is no line.
• From the last two chambers, the exit is not immediately obvious even with a can light.
• I exited from the dive astounded at the loose and easy way rules get broken in the name of tourist dollars.

It's a cave.


All the best, James

 

[scorpiofish]

Been there, done that.

We discussed it after the dive. Using a consensus definition of a cave dive, yes, it is a cave dive. It would therefore also qualify as the lowest risk cave dive on earth. The distance from an opening in one of the pockets is very short, far shorter than exiting from within the cavern while in natural light.

I did around 40 minutes and used 800 psi. We used the same tank for the next dive.

I know, it's a cave! Don't do it! Well, empirically, the risk is low. So far I'd guess 10,000 non-cave divers have done this cave without incident.

 

[farsidefan1]

I've done it a couple of times. Some factors are (I'm not saying they are mitigating. Just some observations) At any time, even from the last chamber, you can drop down without your light and see the blue glow of the exit DURING THE DAY. We did just that. I don't think you ever get even 100 feet, (maybe not much over half that) feet from the exit. The 4 chambers all have fresh air - and they are quite beautiful.
All that said however I did read about a dm that took some divers in it at night and he had a hell of a time finding his way out. He was disoriented and kept coming up in the same chamber (guess he needed to read about how to get out of a maze). They could have spent the night in the chamber of course but that would have not been overly fun. There are no scuba police, you don't need permission. Good luck. If you do it during the day I would not be very concerned IF you are with a dm that knows the place well and doesn't take you in after dark. And assuming you do some skills work to learn how not to silt out the cave/ cavern. I don't think you need full cave training to do it but some skills - frog kick, reverse kick would not be out of order. Frankly I considered it a very simple dive but all of us were pretty experienced. The only wild card factor is if you are with some newbie (might be you who silts things up

Feel free to pm me for more details