certification limits and how they are considered now days....

[TMHeimer]

Agree. I guess too many incidents at some point with OW divers getting in trouble resulting in Ops having to legally protect themselves. "No swimming when lifeguard off duty", "swim between the flags only" , 'red flags up, beach closed to swimming"-- doesn't matter if you are lifeguard yourself or even an olympic swimmer. Just the multitude of rules we have today (my friend said that to me circa 1988...).
Nova Scotia-- no signs. Park by the ocean and do whatever you want, Not enough people (or lawsuits) here so we get such freedoms. Once in a while "Swim at your own risk"-- doesn't that relieve toe gov't. of any legalities? If not, it should.

Oh I forgot one good one-- Remain seated while seat belt sign is on. Meanwhile the flight attendants waltz down the aisle while you really gotta pee.

 

[DiveHewi]

Yup. I overheard a dive master in Belize tell one of his divers that there are no dive police in the ocean.

 

[boulderjohn]

Yup. I overheard a dive master in Belize tell one of his divers that there are no dive police in the ocean.

...especially in Belize, and that is a good example of the issue.

About a decade ago, PADI sent an open letter to Belize authorities and dive operations pleading with them to do something about the fact that brand new OW divers were regularly going to 130 feet or more in the Great Blue Hole. The Belize government could do something about if they wished. The dive operators could do something about it if they wished (although they would need a mututal agreement), but the agency (PADI) had no ability to do so.

You could say that they could take action against the PADI affiliated dive shops in Belize, but if they did, the shops affiliated with other agencies would have an advantage in the lucrative Great Blue Hole diving market. The result of them coming down hard on their affiliated shops would mean they would lose their affiliated shops.

 

[tursiops]

...especially in Belize, and that is a good example of the issue.

About a decade ago, PADI sent an open letter to Belize authorities and dive operations pleading with them to do something about the fact that brand new OW divers were regularly going to 130 feet or more in the Great Blue Hole. The Belize government could do something about if they wished. The dive operators could do something about it if they wished (although they would need a mututal agreement), but the agency (PADI) had no ability to do so.

You could say that they could take action against the PADI affiliated dive shops in Belize, but if they did, the shops affiliated with other agencies would have an advantage in the lucrative Great Blue Hole diving market. The result of them coming down hard on their affiliated shops would mean they would lose their affiliated shops.

What are the accident stats for the Blue Hole?

 

[boulderjohn]

What are the accident stats for the Blue Hole?

I have no idea.

To be honest, I doubt they are very high. They typically send a group down with a DM in front and a DM behind. They do a check at the rim to make sure everyone is equalized and ready to go, then they drop down to the half cave, swim by the speleothems for a couple minutes, and head for the surface. I would guess most people reach the surface with half the air left in their AL 80s.

I personally consider that specific dive a waste of time, but the trip is worth it because the next two dives on Half Moon Cay are great, as is the bird observation platform there. I led a group trip to Ambergris Cay a while ago, and the after trip survey showed that almost everyone thought the Blue Hole dive was the high point of the trip. Go figure.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

...especially in Belize, and that is a good example of the issue.

About a decade ago, PADI sent an open letter to Belize authorities and dive operations pleading with them to do something about the fact that brand new OW divers were regularly going to 130 feet or more in the Great Blue Hole. The Belize government could do something about if they wished. The dive operators could do something about it if they wished (although they would need a mututal agreement), but the agency (PADI) had no ability to do so.

You could say that they could take action against the PADI affiliated dive shops in Belize, but if they did, the shops affiliated with other agencies would have an advantage in the lucrative Great Blue Hole diving market. The result of them coming down hard on their affiliated shops would mean they would lose their affiliated shops.

I found this post from elsewhere on the internet posted by Andy Davis (formerly known as devon diver or something): PADI cautions dive guides and tour operators: Belize needs dive and scuba safety policy - The San Pedro Sun

While I did not dive the Blue Hole when I was in Belize a year ago (doesn't appeal to me), my guess nothing has changed.

 

[drrich2]

but what is the popular consensus out there these days?

If you refer to a hypothetical broad-based consensus across the recreational dive community, dive operators and the insurance providers they are de facto obliged to defer to, then I'd say there is no such consensus.

The posts in this thread and others illustrate that.

But can we arrive at a rough rule of thumb understanding useful to the mainstream open water recreational diver who no intent to pursue professional of technical diving training and cert.s? Yes. Here's my suggestion for that:

1.) If you are a so-called 'vacation diver' who dives once on twice per year, likely one day (e.g.: cruise ship stops) but maybe a few, in Caribbean locations with very benign conditions and always boat dives where they tend to cater to very occasional divers (e.g.: St. Thomas and some others; typically a guide is provided), then your basic Open Water certification may be all you need. The may also serve at some U.S. dive op. providers (such as Rainbow Reef Dive Center out of Key Largo, Florida, on their shallow reef (but not deep wreck) dives).

2.) If you intend to ocean dive in the U.S. more widely, particularly in destinations known for deeper diving (e.g.: Jupiter, Florida, or deep offshore wrecks out of North Carolina, or the deep wrecks out of Key Largo), plan to get the Advanced Open Water certification and you should probably get a Nitrox certification, too.

So, the very occasional vacation diver can probably get by with an OW cert., but the avid diver likely to pursue deeper water (especially U.S. deeper water) diving should plan to get OW, AOW and likely Nitrox.

A Solo Diver cert. can come in handy and the training may be valuable; Rescue Diver is a fine course that helps cultivate a better mindset for assessing risk and dealing with problems. But what I listed is what most probably 'need.'

If anyone disagrees, that's fine. Perhaps you'd like to substitute Deep Diver for AOW.

 

[ThatDogDontHunt]

If you refer to a hypothetical broad-based consensus across the recreational dive community, dive operators and the insurance providers they are de facto obliged to defer to, then I'd say there is no such consensus.

The posts in this thread and others illustrate that.

But can we arrive at a rough rule of thumb understanding useful to the mainstream open water recreational diver who no intent to pursue professional of technical diving training and cert.s? Yes. Here's my suggestion for that:

1.) If you are a so-called 'vacation diver' who dives once on twice per year, likely one day (e.g.: cruise ship stops) but maybe a few, in Caribbean locations with very benign conditions and always boat dives where they tend to cater to very occasional divers (e.g.: St. Thomas and some others; typically a guide is provided), then your basic Open Water certification may be all you need. The may also serve at some U.S. dive op. providers (such as Rainbow Reef Dive Center out of Key Largo, Florida, on their shallow reef (but not deep wreck) dives).

2.) If you intend to ocean dive in the U.S. more widely, particularly in destinations known for deeper diving (e.g.: Jupiter, Florida, or deep offshore wrecks out of North Carolina, or the deep wrecks out of Key Largo), plan to get the Advanced Open Water certification and you should probably get a Nitrox certification, too.

So, the very occasional vacation diver can probably get by with an OW cert., but the avid diver likely to pursue deeper water (especially U.S. deeper water) diving should plan to get OW, AOW and likely Nitrox.

A Solo Diver cert. can come in handy and the training may be valuable; Rescue Diver is a fine course that helps cultivate a better mindset for assessing risk and dealing with problems. But what I listed is what most probably 'need.'

If anyone disagrees, that's fine. Perhaps you'd like to substitute Deep Diver for AOW.

Any rule of thumb for Caribbean LOBs?

In my experience they get a mix of hardcore "iron divers" (who do every dive offered) to the 2 a day 1 dive trip a year vacation diver.

None of the boats we have been on required anything other than OW.

 

[dmaziuk]

We stick to Bonaire, Curacao, and Roatan, for our vacations: so far nobody asked for anything other then OW (and nitrox if you want it) in any of them. For Roatan swim-throughs we'll usually have 2 DMs similar to what John described above, except if anyone decides to go around rather than through, the 2nd DM will go with them instead of bringing up the rear. The only thing I heard from a DM pre-"the easiest 130' you'll ever do" dive is "it's deep so watch your gauges".

On Bonaire and Curacao you get the keys to the tank room and nobody to stop you from going down to the sand and out, should you so desire.

 

[boulderjohn]

I found this post from elsewhere on the internet posted by Andy Davis (formerly known as devon diver or something): PADI cautions dive guides and tour operators: Belize needs dive and scuba safety policy - The San Pedro Sun

While I did not dive the Blue Hole when I was in Belize a year ago (doesn't appeal to me), my guess nothing has changed.

From the article:

According to the President of the San Pedro Tourist Guide Association, Phillip “Billy” Leslie, while the letter is strong and is viewed as a reminder, PADI members must adhere to the standards they have signed on to. “It is a strong reminder indicating that if we are engaged in such practices, that for safety purposes, we should discontinue it. The standards are written for instructing – for teaching. They are not written for certified divers to follow. What PADI is trying to do is to ensure safety, first and foremost, followed by the preparation that has been passed on to the divers.”​

https://cdn.sanpedrosun.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/PADI-Writes-Dive-Stakeholders-4.jpg