cenotes experience/certification?

[GreenDiverDown]

Stephen,

I just cannot put any validity on your statements beyond what I have commented on already. They are your personal observations from your point of view.

I don't mean to sound like I'm arguing, Dennis, but 4 of the 5 things that I specifically listed were just things that happened; several divers visibly shaken by their experience, a guide who admitted never having been in this particular ceynote, two divers whose abilities were so yet unrefined that they were told not to move while they were towed thru the passage ways and an instructor who lost track of one of her charges.

My point of view had nothing to do with these events.

I guess one comment I hear a lot is "wow, that was a cave dive, we must have been deep within the system." I smile and then explain how it was still a cavern dive and if they turned around or looked up at this point or at that point of the dive, they would have seen open air or another entrance or..... Perception varies from person to person.

Ah... yes. I do understand what you mean here. It is quite possible that we were never past the "true" cavern zone. I thought of this exact same thing at the time and I know exactly what you are saying. My point is this, however... if the diver believes himself to be in a cave then in effect he is. Hmm... I'm not sure how to explain this.

If the guide is in full control and able to successfully respond or deal with any situation that might arise, then perhaps it might not matter whether or not the diver in question actually perceives things accurately. After all, should the worst happen, the guide would deal with it and lead the diver out of the cavern.

OTOH, if circumstances are such that a diver is not within the control of the guide, how the diver perceives his environment can greatly influence how he responds to an untoward event... whether his perception is based in reality or not may have little to do with his response.

I don't know if that's clear. Sorry.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Hmm - just a friendly question - what's the difference then if Dennis were to issue a diver their PADI Cavern specialty at the end of their week's vacation ? Either way they start out the week untrained.

Merry Christmas.

My answer will be similar to the one dennis offered. In theory, at least, in a cavern class (or any other class) all the individual skills needed for the new environment being trained for are introduced, demonstrated and practiced prior to entering that new environment. Though the student has no first hand experience in that new environment yet, they in effect, know how to do it and demosnstratably so. They then go into that invironment to gain actual experience under the supervision of the instructor. The instructor, at that point, is really there to catch and correct mistakes, especialy dangerous ones, and give feedback but if everything goes right the instructor won't need to do anything except watch.


A simple example is being taught to ascend in confined water before your first open water dive. Even if you (or you and your buddy) get seperated from your class group, you should be able to make a controlled ascent and end the dive without any help. If that same seperation happened on a guided cavern dive and you found yourself off the line, away from the group and not immediately able to see daylight (even if it's only because you don't know which way to look for it) would you have the equipment and skills to get yourself out?

It could be that the chance of that happening is remote but I can invision situations where it could. The guides planning, the guides choice in dive sites, the guides pre-dive screening of divers skills and who knows what else are all going to effect the likelyhood of it happening and the outcome if it does. It's all dependant on the skill of the guide because we know that the diver hasn't (or may not have been) taught how. In my judgement, you had better pick the right guide for these dives.

 

[daniel f aleman]

This is Mexico.

Any cenote diver who WHO IS NOT FULLY CERTIFIED AS A CAVE DIVER by an NACD or CDS Mexican based Instructor is a fool IF he goes into a Mexican cavern, or cave, without a Mexican based NACD or CDS Instructor.

 

[Diver Lori]

This is Mexico.

Any cenote diver who WHO IS NOT FULLY CERTIFIED AS A CAVE DIVER by an NACD or CDS Mexican based Instructor is a fool IF he goes into a Mexican cavern, or cave, without a Mexican based NACD or CDS Instructor.

Gimme a break! Are you telling me since I was full cave certified by a Florida based cave instructor, I'm a fool to go in a Mexican cave without a Mexican based instructor??

Talk about trying to corner the market..................

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Dennis,

What do you think about the cavern at Carocol? Seems like I read somewhere that you were on one of the Labna Ha expeditions... so I'm guessing that you would be intimately familiar with this site. I'm guessing that you will confirm that this is a "legit" cavern, but I was also wondering if the limited light available in the main "room' might make it easy for a newbie to feel disoriented. What do you think?

 

[daniel f aleman]

Gimme a break! Are you telling me since I was full cave certified by a Florida based cave instructor, I'm a fool to go in a Mexican cave without a Mexican based instructor??

Talk about trying to corner the market..................

Point is that if you get in any kind of trouble, especially if you are found at fault in an accident, well, you don't want to be in Mexico. An instructor (fully insured) can guide you through a cave much better, and safer, than any so called "guide"...

 

[Charlie99]

Hmm - just a friendly question - what's the difference then if Dennis were to issue a diver their PADI Cavern specialty at the end of their week's vacation ? Either way they start out the week untrained.

It's kind of like the difference between a student doing their first OW dives in an OW cert class, or a non-certified diver doing a Discover Scuba dive. In one case, they have prepared and have practiced many of the skills in confined water. In the other case they have gotten a 30 minute briefing on the basics of how not to kill yourself underwater ("one more time, DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATH" ).

I had a couple of really enjoyable dives in the Dos Ojos cenote, including the Bat Cave loop. But the briefing was pretty minimal and the underlying basis for the dive was "follow the guide and he'll take care of you". Only because I asked did I find out detailed info about the intended route, what the halfway marker looked like, etc.
There was much about the dive that was a "trust me" dive, just as with the non-certified Discover Scuba dives there is a huge element of "trust me". Both can be done safely, but let's call it what it is.

 

[MikeFerrara]

It's kind of like the difference between a student doing their first OW dives in an OW cert class, or a non-certified diver doing a Discover Scuba dive. In one case, they have prepared and have practiced many of the skills in confined water. In the other case they have gotten a 30 minute briefing on the basics of how not to kill yourself underwater ("one more time, DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATH" ).

I had a couple of really enjoyable dives in the Dos Ojos cenote, including the Bat Cave loop. But the briefing was pretty minimal and the underlying basis for the dive was "follow the guide and he'll take care of you". Only because I asked did I find out detailed info about the intended route, what the halfway marker looked like, etc.
There was much about the dive that was a "trust me" dive, just as with the non-certified Discover Scuba dives there is a huge element of "trust me". Both can be done safely, but let's call it what it is.

That's a good example but it even goes further. Per PADI standards, the DSD can be done with very limited preperation. However, in order that DSD divers can get credit, OW dive 1 can be done after confinrd water dive 1. The cool part is that neutral buoyancy underwater isn't introduced until confined water dive 3 so if OW 1 is done after cw 1 the instructor has to handle the inflator/deflator for the diver...and neutral buoyancy at the surface and correct weighting isn't covered until module 2 so even that is up to the instructor. The student just breaths. Lots of people survive it and usually they only hurt their ears. You may as well just do it in a cave. LOL

 

[RLarsen]

I feel the comments by Stephen Ash are worth thinking about. I'm surprised and disagree with the criticism directed at his post.
I recently dove Dos Ojos and the Bat Cave and really enjoyed my first cenotes trip. I'm glad I did it, but the more I think about it the more concerned I am about the DM's ( and dive ops ) casual attitude toward that style of dive. Sure, my buddy and I were given a briefing about signals, the dive-line, air management etc.
It wasn't until we were a ways into the dives that I realized how much environment was overhead, and overhead with zero light. Most of the Cenotes photos I had seen showed dramatic images of beautifully backlit caverns.
There were a number of times my buddy and I were lead out of view of the dive-line in totally dark, overhead areas. I enjoyed the dives but it really got my attention.
At times I was thinking, "ok, its dark, its overhead environment, I can't see the diveline and I just met the DM a few hours ago. Does he know where were going ?
I don't have a pony bottle and neither does my buddy."
Later when I brought this up to the DM he laughed and said "oh I've done these dives hundreds of times, the line and openings were never very far away. I lead you away from the lines to give you a longer and more interesting dive."
I'm a fairly new diver and was mostly comfortable with the dives. I trusted my buddy and hoped for the best with the DM. The more I think about it though I'm concerned that many divers have no business being in there and more attention should be paid to the basic safety needs of overhead conditions.
Stephen Ash's observations and concerns are valid in my opinion.
Rex

 

[Dive-aholic]

Gimme a break! Are you telling me since I was full cave certified by a Florida based cave instructor, I'm a fool to go in a Mexican cave without a Mexican based instructor??

Talk about trying to corner the market..................

Actually, you probably are. Florida caves are lined along the same standards. There's usually one gold line and jumps are configured pretty much the same. Mexican caves are different. It's very possible to find a gold line that splits into several different routes without real good line markers. If you don't know the system, you can easily get lost. This happened just recently with 2 divers dying. I haven't dived Mexican caves but know Florida instructors who won't dive some of the Mexican systems without a guide because of the way they line them.