Cavern course?

[jadairiii]

Given the fatality yesterday, the timing on the sarcasm may have missed the mark.

Not really. I remember when IANTD used to teach trimix using air to 200' (watched Tom Mount teach it that way).

I cant understand not teaching advanced diving "correctly". Using singles to teach overhead environments merely impowers, does not limit.

 

[kensuf]

OK, I think I understand where you're coming from.

Where I'm coming from is the idea that the first step of cave training should be significantly more than what is involved in a "typical" Cavern course and should involve the use of twin cylinders. Basically, that Cavern as a stand alone program should be a dead end (no pun intended).

 

[tbone1004]

I'm with @kensuf on this one. I much prefer the NAUI/GUE style of Cave 1/2 and think the 4-step program needs to go the way of the dodo, hell it had run its course when I got certified over a decade ago.
Treat cavern as a recreational specialty so people can have fun in Mexico, Buford, etc. hopefully without offing themselves, but even the intro to cave from CDS should have been redone to a 5-day course more analogous to NAUI's cave 1 where there would be less people violating their training limits.
I bet if you made every cave diver swear on their mothers grave that they didn't violate sixths or make a nav decision while intro certified over 70% of them would come clean and admit they did.

 

[kensuf]

We got Apprentice Plus as a compromise between the group that wanted a longer minimum (and thirds) and the group that was set on something more than sixths but less than thirds.

 

[Gone for diving]

So I am confused is cavern a prerequisite before doing cave 1 or not?

If I was driving your way to go diving,
no way I would dive single tanks,

Only time I dive single is if I fly somewhere to go diving,

 

[kensuf]

No, Cavern is not a pre-req for the first step of cave training through the NSS-CDS, which is called Apprentice.

If you were to take a Cavern class and then enroll in Apprentice, your instructor would only be able to credit a maximum of one day of training.

 

[tbone1004]

So I am confused is cavern a prerequisite before doing cave 1 or not?

If I was driving your way to go diving,
no way I would dive single tanks,

Only time I dive single is if I fly somewhere to go diving,

It is not with several agencies. It is no longer a prereq for CDS, it never has been for GUE/NAUI. It's been used as an intro to tech class for a long time which is irritating so I'm glad the CDS kicked it out as a prereq and I'm sure there aren't any instructors that are unhappy about it either.

 

[kensuf]

I wrote a lengthy missive (rambling really) on the subject of course names/break points here on scubaboard some time ago, and about a year ago I turned it into a web-page with some significant detail on the thought process behind it all.

Cave Diver Training – Dive Gainesville

 

[rddvet]

I'm with @kensuf on this one. I much prefer the NAUI/GUE style of Cave 1/2 and think the 4-step program needs to go the way of the dodo, hell it had run its course when I got certified over a decade ago.
Treat cavern as a recreational specialty so people can have fun in Mexico, Buford, etc. hopefully without offing themselves, but even the intro to cave from CDS should have been redone to a 5-day course more analogous to NAUI's cave 1 where there would be less people violating their training limits.
I bet if you made every cave diver swear on their mothers grave that they didn't violate sixths or make a nav decision while intro certified over 70% of them would come clean and admit they did.

I agree, I greatly prefer the NAUI/GUE setup as opposed to the 4 step program, but I also had to do cavern by itself first back then. I've never liked the 4 step programs because I see too many people trying to dive above their training or pushing to move to the next level without taking the time to perfect skills.

I guess if no doubles is really "safer" for starting in cavern that's great, but I don't see that as anything that can be realistically tracked. I think it sounds "safer" on paper, but I don't know if that will be the case in real life. I can see both sides, but still believe it's a step in the wrong direction. I'm pro giving the diver the option of either, not banning doubles. I know quite a few people with technical training that aren't sure if they'd actually like cave diving, so they took cavern to see how it felt. Making them downgrade to a single tank is silly. I think a better choice would be for an instructor to assess the person's diving history and goals and appropriately recommend singles vs doubles.

It really seems like it's seasoned cave divers pushing safe limits that's leading to deaths, not OW divers anymore. That's the problem we really need to fix, but that's an impossible uphill battle. But I guess there's no real data on that anymore anyway.

 

[tbone1004]

@rddvet if the IUCRR actually fulfilled their published mission and actually published the incident reports so we could do accidental analysis *for anyone curious they haven't really done anything for over a decade and "active investigation" arguments are ******** for why they're still not out, they just couldn't be bothered*, and the "dive more post less" stickers from Amigos are quite possibly the most toxic thing in our community because no one actually talks about their near misses which is probably where the real learning needs to be coming from but alas, I doubt that will ever happen. I was hoping Stratis' book was going to help but it doesn't seem to be changing anything.