Cavern course?

[jadairiii]

OK, I think I understand where you're coming from.

Where I'm coming from is the idea that the first step of cave training should be significantly more than what is involved in a "typical" Cavern course and should involve the use of twin cylinders. Basically, that Cavern as a stand alone program should be a dead end (no pun intended).

Obviously I'm old....."back in my day...", but honestly, there were not such thing as "Cavern courses" when I started diving. The rule was , no cave diving, if you cant see light, dont go. If you can see light, have fun.

To day, IMHO, cavern is sold as a starting point to being a cave diver, overhead environment diver (just look at the websites from the different agencies and how they are sold), and so it is impowering divers to go beyond their training. Just look at what they do in Mexico, or even Blue Grotto (before they pulled the line). I dont think the average diver that takes a cavern course sees it as a "dead end".

 

[rddvet]

@rddvet if the IUCRR actually fulfilled their published mission and actually published the incident reports so we could do accidental analysis *for anyone curious they haven't really done anything for over a decade and "active investigation" arguments are ******** for why they're still not out, they just couldn't be bothered*, and the "dive more post less" stickers from Amigos are quite possibly the most toxic thing in our community because no one actually talks about their near misses which is probably where the real learning needs to be coming from but alas, I doubt that will ever happen. I was hoping Stratis' book was going to help but it doesn't seem to be changing anything.

I've never liked wayne's stickers. They started out as a funny joke but have become a calling card for people who want to keep things quiet. Or a way to write people off during in-person conversations (aka "that's just what they say on the internet"). It's definitely created a particular mentality in some people

 

[kensuf]

I know quite a few people with technical training that aren't sure if they'd actually like cave diving, so they took cavern to see how it felt. Making them downgrade to a single tank is silly.

That's legitimate, I recently heard from a student that his girlfriend took Cavern to see if she'd get the cave bug (her conclusion was she didn't like it).

One of the things that hasn't been mentioned is that someone that wishes to take "Cavern" in twin cylinders may do so, they just will not be issued a permanent certification at the conclusion of two days of training. However, they may continue on and complete Apprentice if they are inclined to do so. So the person that wants to test the waters can spend two days and decide to either give up on overhead diving or continue to complete Apprentice.

 

[Johnoly]

.....Treat cavern as a recreational specialty so people can have fun in Mexico,...

I think that's where the Student's goals and how instructor gets the student to their goal is the way they will teach cavern. If you clearly state you have no intention of going beyond cavern for an upcoming vacation and show up with split fins, snorkel & a full rental gear. then teach at that level. But if they say they are proceeding to advanced levels, then teach to that level. I got my ass chewed out so many times on even dropping my knees 3 inches, or the reel touch the floor in Cavern, but Ohh Boy it sure helped me at Intro days later.

 

[MichaelMc]

if an individual is going to be diving in twin cylinders in an overhead, we'd rather spend four full days with them and teach them some basic cave diving principles in the case that they are tempted to go beyond the cavern zone.

This makes sense. Know more than your intended area. (Overlearning in NAUI parlance.) So know intro if diving caverns in doubles. Thanks.

 

[Eric802]

Obviously I'm old....."back in my day...", but honestly, there were not such thing as "Cavern courses" when I started diving. The rule was , no cave diving, if you cant see light, dont go. If you can see light, have fun.

To day, IMHO, cavern is sold as a starting point to being a cave diver, overhead environment diver (just look at the websites from the different agencies and how they are sold), and so it is impowering divers to go beyond their training. Just look at what they do in Mexico, or even Blue Grotto (before they pulled the line). I dont think the average diver that takes a cavern course sees it as a "dead end".

I’ve read that cavern, since it’s a good introduction into overhead environments, is a good “prerequisite“ for wreck as well.

 

[kensuf]

I’ve read that cavern, since it’s a good introduction into overhead environments, is a good “prerequisite“ for wreck as well.

Are we talking "wreck" (non-penetration) or "advanced wreck" (penetration)? I would think it depends on who taught your Cavern course and what their background in overhead diving is, but a Cavern course probably wouldn't adequately prepare you for wreck penetration diving.

One of the problems with Cavern courses is the pathway to become a cavern instructor. Historically, the requirements were you must be full cave with a minimum of 100 post training cave dives AND you must work with at least two instructors as an intern before going to an institute. That is no longer the case, PADI allows an instructor to self-certify as a cavern instructor if they simply complete full cave and 25 lifetime cave dives (16 of which were probably completed in training).

There's another agency that has an even lower bar for their cavern instructor. A year (or so) ago a friend of mine taught intro to cave to a person that was already a Cavern Instructor Trainer through SSI even though that individual had not completed any sort of cave training. I wish I was making that up.

 

[ScubaBadger32]

I'll second @kensuf

good thing i wanted tdi or SSI!!!!!

 

[Eric802]

Are we talking "wreck" (non-penetration) or "advanced wreck" (penetration)? I would think it depends on who taught your Cavern course and what their background in overhead diving is, but a Cavern course probably wouldn't adequately prepare you for wreck penetration diving.

I believe it referred to plain old wreck, not advanced.

 

[inquis]

Cavern or Wreck is a prerequisite to TDI's Advanced Wreck. Perhaps it's so a reel isn't a completely foreign concept, but having not taken either, that's purely speculation on my part.