Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

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GUE instructors must do the swim tests as well when qualifying as an instructor. i'm not an instructor but i think i was told it was harder than the test i had to do for tech 2 and rb80

Panos or an instructor would have to chime in with the specifics of their swim test

Found From GUE S&P:

3.5.2 General Instructor Candidate PrerequisitesAll GUE instructor candidates (entry-level or upgrading), irrespective of curriculum, must:
1. Be a minimum 21 years of age
2. Be able to swim at least 600 yards/550 meters in less than 14 minutes without stopping.
3. Be able to swim a distance of at least 70 feet/21 meters while submerged on a breathhold.
4. Be current in CPR and First Aid.
5. Be a nonsmoker.
6. Be physically and mentally fit.

14 minutes for item 2 and 70 foot breath hold swim, item 3 are fair standards, I think. I know smokers who can do this, I do not disagree with item 5 because I don't smoke.

---------- Post added March 25th, 2015 at 04:33 PM ----------

Rick: here's where Panos brought it up.

roger that
 
I don't care what the recreational agencies are doing regarding fitness, but in a cave environment if you're teaching and you aren't in decent enough shape you're endangering your students lives, there's no other way to put it. If you can't kick through the keyhole and track their butts back out, then you have no business teaching. If you can't kick at a reasonable pace for an extended period of time to get someone out of a bad situation, thinking 1k+ft at 100fpm or so then you should re-evaluate whether or not it's safe for you to continue taking students into those environments. It's blunt, sure I'm an a$$ for bringing it up, but 2014 went by without any cave deaths and we had one super early into 2015 which was suspected heart attack. I'm 100% on board for all technical instructors requiring a full dive physical to be conducted every year and have that physical drafted up by the training committees for each agency. Bring this to a physician and have them evaluate everything. I think all divers should be doing it, but the instructors especially.

We require our open water students to meet those requirements and they have to reup on them for every course.

I'm 100% on board with #5, biased as a nonsmoker, but I think we have enough data to show that it's bad for you in general, but also at elevated pressures with potentially elevated levels of CO in the body.
 
i'm not saying all agencies need to or should carbon copy everything GUE is doing. but i think the folks that started and run GUE saw some things wrong in dive training (a lot of the things we're discussing) and came up with some pretty good ways to avoid a lot of it.

i also think it's the best dive training i've ever seen, period. so i'm biased
 
i'm not saying all agencies need to or should carbon copy everything GUE is doing. but i think the folks that started and run GUE saw some things wrong in dive training (a lot of the things we're discussing) and came up with some pretty good ways to avoid a lot of it.

i also think it's the best dive training i've ever seen, period. so i'm biased

Being biased is ok.

The agencies do not need to carbon copy each other, we just need to talk and establish a better collective baseline of acceptable core practices
 
First off, I apologize for raising the issue of fitness, it was not my intent to muddy the waters. A swim test is simply just one in an array of things that we require from our instructors for both renewal and re-qualification.

To the more substantive point at hand: If a student participates in a class that that has not been run to standard, rendering the student under-trained, what would GUE do if confronted with a course completion form that indicates that the student has passed?

GUE would look to ensure the completion of the student's training--render them a safe diver-- without additional cost to the student. We would and have leveraged institutional resources to remedy student dissatisfaction where warranted and instructor shortfalls without additional cost to the student. We, however, would not ratify a certification--issue a card-- in full knowledge that a diver would be at greater risk of harm because of sub-optimal training.

Having said this, if such an oversight did occur I am very confident that the GUE instructor in question would seek to remedy the situation at no cost to the student. In effect, the oversight would be unintentional and when pointed out the GUE instructor would do what she or he can to make the student whole. GUE instructors are fully cognizant that they are renewed annually and that their credentials can and will be pulled if they fail to represent the best interests of the agency--no ifs, ands, or buts. Because they have undertaken a very costly and rigorous process of instructor development for the privilege of representing GUE, and because this process ensures as best it can that they identify with the principles of the organization, they will do whatever they can to abide by the letter of the law. If they make a mistake--and this will happen, though rarely--they will remedy the oversight. If the violation is intentional, then there is a disciplinary course that is followed. In such a case, the students will be made whole through the use of institutional resources.
 
When I first took over as CDS training chairman I was still printing the cert cards at my house. When I mailed the cards out I included a welcome letter which had a link to a "Survey Monkey" survey with ten questions posed similar to the ones you suggested. I did not ever see one survey answered so I eventually quit sending them out.

People are generally hesitant to give negative feedback if they feel the person they're giving the feedback on is reading it. Or if they feel it is just a formality and nothing is going to be done.

I have written privately to PADI's QA board many times regarding the 8-to-1 instructor ratio being a cause (partially or fully) of students getting lost during courses and dying. I have never gotten a reply (either telling me I am wrong, they will look into it, etc.) and the standards have not changed. I am not much motivated to waste my time filling in a PADI QA questionnaire.

I feel it is not necessary to reinvent the wheel. GUE already has a system that works very well in place. Just mirror what they do. I am very motivated to submit a GUE feedback form because 1. my card depends on it and 2. I am told that Panos the QA director reads every single feedback submitted and that GUE takes student feedback very seriously.

1. Set up an independent quality control board. It can be made up of just 2-3 people who have a reputation of being impartial and incorruptible.

2. Let students know that they will not receive any cards unless they submit the Q&A

3. On the Q&A let students know that their feedback goes straight to the QA board and their instructor does not get to read it.

4. Put important & specific questions in the Q&A. Did you complete this skill? Did your instructor do this? Was his behaviour professional? Etc.

Just my thoughts as a student.
 
First off, I apologize for raising the issue of fitness, it was not my intent to muddy the waters. A swim test is simply just one in an array of things that we require from our instructors for both renewal and re-qualification.

To the more substantive point at hand: If a student participates in a class that that has not been run to standard, rendering the student under-trained, what would GUE do if confronted with a course completion form that indicates that the student has passed?

GUE would look to ensure the completion of the student's training--render them a safe diver-- without additional cost to the student. We would and have leveraged institutional resources to remedy student dissatisfaction where warranted and instructor shortfalls without additional cost to the student. We, however, would not ratify a certification--issue a card-- in full knowledge that a diver would be at greater risk of harm because of sub-optimal training.

Having said this, if such an oversight did occur I am very confident that the GUE instructor in question would seek to remedy the situation at no cost to the student. In effect, the oversight would be unintentional and when pointed out the GUE instructor would do what she or he can to make the student whole. GUE instructors are fully cognizant that they are renewed annually and that their credentials can and will be pulled if they fail to represent the best interests of the agency--no ifs, ands, or buts. Because they have undertaken a very costly and rigorous process of instructor development for the privilege of representing GUE, and because this process ensures as best it can that they identify with the principles of the organization, they will do whatever they can to abide by the letter of the law. If they make a mistake--and this will happen, though rarely--they will remedy the oversight. If the violation is intentional, then there is a disciplinary course that is followed. In such a case, the students will be made whole through the use of institutional resources.


Key point here is that instructors pay a fair amount of money, effort and time to become instructors but they have only earned the privilege of representing an agency.

This is no different then a drivers licence People learn to drive by lessons or otherwise, they buy a car, pay insurance, pay to get their licence and then have the privilege to drive on the roads. And do so having to follow some basic rules of the road or receive a penalty for bad behavior

The issue of fitness is not off limits here and is a consideration in the grand scheme of things
 
Found From GUE S&P:

3.5.2 General Instructor Candidate PrerequisitesAll GUE instructor candidates (entry-level or upgrading), irrespective of curriculum, must:
1. Be a minimum 21 years of age
2. Be able to swim at least 600 yards/550 meters in less than 14 minutes without stopping.
3. Be able to swim a distance of at least 70 feet/21 meters while submerged on a breathhold.
4. Be current in CPR and First Aid.
5. Be a nonsmoker.
6. Be physically and mentally fit.

14 minutes for item 2 and 70 foot breath hold swim, item 3 are fair standards, I think. I know smokers who can do this, I do not disagree with item 5 because I don't smoke.

---------- Post added March 25th, 2015 at 04:33 PM ----------



roger that

Physical fitness assessments are fairly common to become an instructor for most agencies. When I became a PADI DM there was a timed 900 yard snorkel swim, and a few other components. When I became a NAUI instructor there was a 450 yard swim in under ten minutes (note NAUI no longer has a timed component), and other components. SDI has a 10 minute 400 yard swim requirement, and other things, for DM too.
 
Every person who takes cavern or cave from me reads this notice from my powerpoint presentation:

Screenshot 2015-03-26 06.38.25.jpg
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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