Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

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GDI, just wondering since Panos brought fitness up, what's the current fitness requirement for NACD instructors?

I think we need to be fair about some things... GUE is a holistic approach and has very high standards for their instructors and expectations that extend beyond actual diving and instruction. Other agencies may not feel they have any "right/authority/wish" to extend themselves to that degree. Fitness is relevant (look at the cave instructor who could not follow his two lost students because he could not fit) but IMHO a instructor should be fit but sometimes i think GUE goes....a little further than needed for dive and student safety. they would disagree and i respect that.
 
What happens when an instructor does not meet the standards during a course? Do you not process the certification or get the student to be evaluated by another instructor? Because I see a potential problem here. Will a student say something bad about the instructor and then not get certified and have to do it all over again and claim compensation from the instructor?

I just want to ask a question(s) on this point regarding the QA Survey before the cert card is issued thing

Q: If the Survey comes back as a negative report, do you as the agency issue the cert and then deal with the instructor afterward? OR Do you deny the cert and have the same instructor now under review repeat the training or another instructor retrain the student?

The logistical problems here are the potential of extra cost paid out for travel and time etc by and of the student AND the feeling of the student that he/She didn't get the correct quality or standard of training?? If you grant the card then you have only added to the current concerns.

Exactly and a good question. Is the instructor responsible for this reimbursement when it was determined that S&P were not followed or something ommitted ? The student took the time off their normal job, paid the money and didn't get the card. The Logistics alone could be expensive.

IMHO: NO INSTRUCTOR SHOULD EVER BE ABOUT ISSUING THE CARD, It's about the provision of proper training. Instructors should be a filter to determine the rate of progressive advancement of a diver to a specific level.

The issue here is that the Instructors are not agents of the agency as much as they agree to conduct training following the S&P of said agency. The agency only polices and/or administers the S&P of training. The contract for training is with that particular instructor and the student. The agencies do not regulate what the instructors charge for training nor do we sign a contract for training the student; That is solely between the student and instructor--- Buyer Beware. We can permit or deny a instructor from teaching under the agencies S&P thus no card will be issued

BUT further I ask if the student fails because of lack of ability or is told there is the need to improve before continuing training, should the student get or receive reimbursement in part or whole?

In this instance I would say NOT. Just like signing up for a college program there would be no refund because you failed the course by not meeting the standards. I have determined very few people at this level of diving had a issue with being challenged and if failing the first attempt didn't come back. Most do return and come better prepared. There are some who said they took the course they should get the card Sorry it doesn't work that way and nor should it.
 
Exactly and a good question. Is the instructor responsible for this reimbursement when it was determined that S&P were not followed or something ommitted ? The student took the time off their normal job, paid the money and didn't get the card. The Logistics alone could be expensive.

IMHO: NO INSTRUCTOR SHOULD EVER BE ABOUT ISSUING THE CARD, It's about the provision of proper training. Instructors should be a filter to determine the rate of progressive advancement of a diver to a specific level.

The issue here is that the Instructors are not agents of the agency as much as they agree to conduct training following the S&P of said agency. The agency only polices and/or administers the S&P of training. The contract for training is with that particular instructor and the student. The agencies do not regulate what the instructors charge for training nor do we sign a contract for training the student; That is solely between the student and instructor--- Buyer Beware. We can permit or deny a instructor from teaching under the agencies S&P thus no card will be issued

BUT further I ask if the student fails because of lack of ability or is told there is the need to improve before continuing training, should the student get or receive reimbursement in part or whole?

In this instance I would say NOT. Just like signing up for a college program there would be no refund because you failed the course by not meeting the standards. I have determined very few people at this level of diving had a issue with being challenged and if failing the first attempt didn't come back. Most do return and come better prepared. There are some who said they took the course they should get the card Sorry it doesn't work that way and nor should it.

if you fail a GUE course you do not get any of your money back, if that's what you're asking. even if you failed, you got what you paid for.
 
I think the question is what if the student passes the course with the instructor, the instructor signs him off as good, everything is paid and settled....and then the QA survey reveals that the student did no lost line drills, was taught to kneel, and only had one simulated zero-viz exit? To follow the college analogy: What if it's not the student's fault and the Professor simply didn't hold up the standards he agreed to teach to? Is there reimbursement there?

I'd be interested to hear what GUE says about a student passing an instructor's standards but failing the agency's standards due to INSTRUCTOR failure.

IMHO: NO INSTRUCTOR SHOULD EVER BE ABOUT ISSUING THE CARD, It's about the provision of proper training. Instructors should be a filter to determine the rate of progressive advancement of a diver to a specific level.

My instructors made this very clear to me. I was not to expect certification. I was to expect training. Certification is earned IF they found me worthy of the card....which was more than checking off skills boxes.
 
GDI, just wondering since Panos brought fitness up, what's the current fitness requirement for NACD instructors?

Where and When did Panos bring fitness up? (Are you referring to physical fitness, Panos was talking about re-assessment of skill sets).

The NACD doesn't go out of its way to ensure it's instructor's physical fitness levels. Sure this could be a concern. Lets be real a dive instructor at 55 years old compared to a instructor at 30 years old may have a higher risk of say a heart attack. Other than perhaps the body's handling physical stress levels differently does this mean one instructor to another because of physical fitness would be a better instructor? a Safer Instructor? Do we put a cap on teaching ages, you can't teach anymore because you are 60 years old?

"The NACD is a professional cave diving organization serving cave divers throughout the world. It is dedicated to promoting a greater appreciation and a full understanding of the unique underwater cave environment and to the special needs required for safe cave diving for the casual visitor and serious explorer alike. Members shall conduct themselves and their courses in a professional manner and
shall not disparage other diving professionals or organizations."

In the NACD Code of Ethics if a instructor has a change in medical status they can be placed in a non-teaching status until such time as a physician signs off that the instructor is good to return to teaching status. We have had this happen already with a few instructors who came forward on their own accord. From the agency aspect it must be discovered if the instructor doesn't come forward on their own.

Now being a professional means to "Me" that you maintain the skills and physical fitness levels to perform up to a minimum expected standard for the task at hand. What it means to someone else is their interpretation.

I do not see ANY scuba agency conducting physical fitness standard tests on their instructors with any sort of annual assessment. Scuba Skills after a period of time, Ok sure (in the case of GUE this is what Panos referred to) but not physical fitness tests.

As for skill sets the NACD assesses a potential instructor's skill sets (academic, physical and practical) at the IE. This is also part of the recommendation given by the co-teaching instructors in their letters to the TD before a applicant can attend a NACD IE.

---------- Post added March 25th, 2015 at 04:08 PM ----------

if you fail a GUE course you do not get any of your money back, if that's what you're asking. even if you failed, you got what you paid for.


Exactly
 
Where and When did Panos bring fitness up? (Are you referring to physical fitness, Panos was talking about re-assessment of skill sets).

The NACD doesn't go out of its way to ensure it's instructor's physical fitness levels. Sure this could be a concern. Lets be real a dive instructor at 55 years old compared to a instructor at 30 years old may have a higher risk of say a heart attack. Other than perhaps the body's handling physical stress levels differently does this mean one instructor to another because of physical fitness would be a better instructor? a Safer Instructor? Do we put a cap on teaching ages, you can't teach anymore because you are 60 years old?

"The NACD is a professional cave diving organization serving cave divers throughout the world. It is dedicated to promoting a greater appreciation and a full understanding of the unique underwater cave environment and to the special needs required for safe cave diving for the casual visitor and serious explorer alike. Members shall conduct themselves and their courses in a professional manner and
shall not disparage other diving professionals or organizations."

In the NACD Code of Ethics if a instructor has a change in medical status they can be placed in a non-teaching status until such time as a physician signs off that the instructor is good to return to teaching status. We have had this happen already with a few instructors who came forward on their own accord. From the agency aspect it must be discovered if the instructor doesn't come forward on their own.

Now being a professional means to "Me" that you maintain the skills and physical fitness levels to perform up to a minimum expected standard for the task at hand. What it means to someone else is their interpretation.

I do not see ANY scuba agency conducting physical fitness standard tests on their instructors with any sort of annual assessment. Scuba Skills after a period of time, Ok sure (in the case of GUE this is what Panos referred to) but not physical fitness tests.

As for skill sets the NACD assesses a potential instructor's skill sets (academic, physical and practical) at the IE. This is also part of the recommendation given by the co-teaching instructors in their letters to the TD before a applicant can attend a NACD IE.

GUE instructors must do the swim tests as well when qualifying as an instructor. i'm not an instructor but i think i was told it was harder than the test i had to do for tech 2 and rb80

Panos or an instructor would have to chime in with the specifics of their swim test
 
I think we need to be fair about some things... GUE is a holistic approach and has very high standards for their instructors and expectations that extend beyond actual diving and instruction. Other agencies may not feel they have any "right/authority/wish" to extend themselves to that degree. Fitness is relevant (look at the cave instructor who could not follow his two lost students because he could not fit) but IMHO a instructor should be fit but sometimes i think GUE goes....a little further than needed for dive and student safety. they would disagree and i respect that.
Given the number of medical deaths (which, I'd suspect has surpassed untrained divers at this point) I would respectfully disagree with an agency who chooses to ignore fitness.
 
Rick: here's where Panos brought it up.

To try and assure a certain level of quality in our instructional process we have implemented at least four controls: 1. Our standards are public; my expectation is that our students review them so as to be aware of our intended course outcomes and their parameters. 2. A QC form that must be filled out by a student at the completion of training pass or fail. Not filling out the form means that the certification does not get processed. Naturally, it is more difficult to compel a failed student to comply, but I will normally email and ask for the person's experience. 3. Renewal. Our instructors must renew annually. This requires them to submit a set of documents that demonstrates that they have taught at least one class, done personal diving to a given standard, and a number of other performance benchmarks (including fitness); and 4. Re-qualification: Every four years instructors must be reexamined by an Instructor Evaluator to make sure that they are current in all changes to the curricula they are sanctioned to teach and to make sure that their skill-set is to standard.
 
Just to jump in on the issue of failing courses. Educational theory was my profession for a good part of my life.

Researchers examining why students pass and fail courses in the regular education system have generally come to agreement on some issues. Most importantly, there is a consensus that in a proper educational system and course, a student who does not have a handicapping condition, is properly motivated, and does not have distracting factors (drug and alcohol use, home environment problems, etc.) will succeed in a course at a high level. If the student fails, then there is at least one and probably more than one reason. This includes the following problems.

Missing prerequisite skills: All courses build on a student's existing knowledge and skill. In an advanced course, the student should have been previously successful in a course that teaches the foundational knowledge needed for he present course. A student who has just completed Algebra I will not do well in a calculus class.

Unrealistic time frame: Teaching the content of a course takes a certain amount of time, but that varies to a degree from student to student. Some take longer than normal, and some learn more quickly. A well-designed course should have a planned time frame that will be sufficient for all but the most challenged students to succeed in that time. To give a ridiculous example, no one will learn calculus in a week.

Unrealistic transfer loads: New learning builds on old learning. A properly designed course sequences instruction in steps so that the student can learn one skill or concept and then move logically to the next level of instruction that builds on that previous learning. The instructor adds to the old learning--that is called a transfer load. If that load is too little, then the student becomes bored. If that load is too great, the student will fail. Here is an example from OW instruction: partial mask flood followed by full mask flood followed by no mask breathing followed by mask removal and replacement followed by no mask swim with mask replacement.

Non-aligned assessment: A study by Alan Cohen of the University of San Francisco analyzed assessments across the nation and found that more than 60% of the assessments assessed something other than what was taught. In those cases, the teachers would have been surprised to see that their assessments were not aligned with their instruction, but in scuba instruction, it should be obvious. I have been involved in a lot of discussions involving technical diving in which participants agreed that in many cases, students are assessed on skills they have not been taught at all. Many instructors will have students perform skills that have not been explained or demonstrated to them. It has happened often in my own scuba training at a number of levels, and I assure you it is very frustrating.

Poor instructional technique: Different instructors have different abilities to communicate with students. I used to coach girls' basketball. A few decades ago I went to a clinic conducted by two of the most successful college coaches in history. These two coaches took turns teaching basketball strategies to a group of athletes they had never met before the clinic. All of us in attendance later talked about what a revelation it was to see them coach. Their ability to communicate new ideas to those people bordered on the miraculous, and it was patently obvious why they were so successful. the opposite can also be true. There are people who simply can't seem to communicate anything to anyone. A friend of mine went to college planning to be an engineer, but in his first semester he failed calculus miserably. He did not have a clue about it. He then retook the course with another instructor and got an A with ease. It all seemed crystal clear to him, and he never had a problem in math again.

Learning interference: If you look at interference theory, you see that some learning can interfere with the student's ability to learn other material. The most common place you see this is in content overload. Put simply, if I rattle off 100 numbers and then ask you to repeat the first 5, you probably won't get any. If I take my time to list 10 numbers and then ask you to name 5, you will probably get them all. One of the top educational theories of curriculum design today, Understanding by Design, tells course designers to examine the course content and divide it into essential learnings, important learnings, things that are good to know, things that would be nice to know but really aren't important, and things you really don't need to know. You have to focus instructional design accordingly. In curriculum analyses that I have done, it is astonishing how much time is often spent on the least important categories, and every minute spent in those two categories interferes with the student's ability to learn what is really important.

In summary, if students are carefully screened to be sure that they have the necessary prerequisite skills to begin the course, if they are motivated properly, if the course designed properly, and if the instructor uses good instructional technique, students should pass, and they will have earned that pass. If a course has a high failure rate, then something is wrong, and a wise instructor should do an analysis to see why that might be true.
 
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