Cave Dive yes Overhead ?

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Are you not fully reading posts or are you just trying to argue?

I have to admit it is very difficult when the posts are as extremely long winded and circuitous as this one.

From a TOS standpoint personal attacks, even attacking someone's credentials are prohibited. You can inquire and question them, but you better pull up short of "attacking" them. That attitude is what turns boards into howler monkey pens.

So what you are doing is threatening to have people disciplined when they point out that the depth of your knowledge on a subject is shallow? But you can still call other SB members jerks with impunity because you have SB Staff next to your name? Bravo.

To repeat myself, I have Cavern and Intro to Cave certs, I am completing a full cave course this January, but without the pretention of thinking that I will then know it all whether I pass or not. Based on comments from instructors and other cave divers with Full Cave certs, I am confident that I am ready for Full Cave and I am aware there is no guarentee of passing. On the other hand if I suspected I would not pass, I'd put it off until I and other felt I was ready. Knowledge of your limitations is a healthy attitude that I have found comes with age and experience along with the willingness to engage in critical thinking.

Well I am glad that this is your attitude. I am tired of reading all these people who post "I'm flying down and will have cavern/intro/cave done in 2 weeks!" like the certification is assured.

That cave training is in addition to 20 years of diving experience and about 10 years of technical diving in doubles and extensive deco experience. I am one of those odd individuals who think full cave should not be completed without prior or at least concurrent deco training, based mostly on doing deco diving when many of the younger divers I encounter were still in training pants. The older I get them more I value experience and the more I appreciate God's grace in letting me survive the hubris and immaturity of youth.

I am glad to hear you survived a decade of deep air diving (You are not certified to dive trimix so I can only assume that that is how you are getting into any kind of deco obligation in OW) but that has nothing to do with cave diving or your experience with regard to issues surrounding cave diving.

I agree with you that no amount of prior OW experience can prepare you for cave diving, but there are real benefits to having solid dive experience and technical diving training before you engage in cave training. The zero to hero approach to cave diving is fraught with peril and no amount of cave training can instill brains, common sense or maturity - that comes from within the diver - especially in what is often an ego driven and, to the outsider, often viewed as an elitist sport populated by chest pounding primadonnas.

I am not disputing any of this, and I have no idea why you are bringing zero-to-hero into this.


Trying to resolve the problem of unthinking or irresponsible divers by giving them a rigid "just say no" response unfortunately does not work - especially when it comes from someone who may be correctly or incorrectly viewed as an elitist primadonna by the person receiving the "NO".

I do not want to expand this to places other than the Ginnie ballroom, Bonne Terre and the Chadelier cave the OP asked about, so lets not bring in other "easy" caverns, for there really are potential dangers in that type of generalization. But to use your own Ginnie Ballroom example, the diver will be told "NO", but will see other OW divers diving Ginnie Ballroom, and conclude two things:

1. Other OW divers are doing it and many of them suck more than me, therefore it must be safe for me to do it (it is potentially an ad populum logical fallacy as everyone doing it does not in and of itself make it safe, but it appears to be a valid argument to the average person). And more alarmingly;

2. The guy(s) who told me "NO" are full of crap/elitist a$$holes/etc, and obviously have questionable credibility as they are overstating what is obviously a minimal threat. (This assumption of the minimalness of the thread gets made when the person lacks other more substantial information to help them make a better decision as they simply don't know enough to know what they don't know.)

Those conclusions are followed in short order with a rationalization that their skills are indeed good enough for the ballroom, and after diving the ballroom, and most importantly, failing to see the differences between Ginnie Ballroom and other caverns or caves because no one explained it to them (after all WE, the cave commuity, lump them all in the same "just say no" category) they go to wayne's world and die.

The cave community has spent decades trying to spread the message that if you were going to do this kind of diving be trained for it. A cavern course is economical and I have never heard of anyone regretting the money spent on it. It is important to have a consistent message. It is never OK to tell people that "this is an overhead environment but you probably wont die if you dive this particular place so it is OK". That is violating Rule #1 of accident analysis, be trained for the diving you do. Once you start people off on the assumption that there are exceptions to the rules thats when you get people using unsafe gas planning, not running guidelines, etc.

It is a safe bet that the two divers who recently drowned there both heard the "no OW training can prepare you..blah blah blah" line numerous times and heard it pretty much the way I just typed it, despite the best intentions of those saying it. Hell, one of them even said it himself on the deco stop while posing as a cave diver, so I know he understood the words even if he had not internalized the implications of the statement.

Yeah these guys thought they had it all figured out. They had all the gear, read everything on the internet, and thought the dives they were doing were no big deal. One of them had a lot of open water certifications, but apparently they did not help him in the situation he found himself in.

Based on a 20 year career working with people in legal, counseling and higher education settings, I have become a firm believer in fully informed consent. It is not ethical to simply tell a person they cannot do something. To do so and believe that will work is incredibly ignorant and assumes that everyone adheres to soley authoritarian arguments. That is just not the case. It is far better, far more effective and consequently far more ethical to provide a person with the information they need to fully understand what they are contemplating and to be able to fully assess their training and abilities in comparision to the demands of the activity. That is what the OP got in this thread, so don't misrepresent that as permission to go overhead diving where ever a person pleases without proper certs.

An informed consent approach requires that you have faith that most people given all the information will make the right decision. That is not always the case as there indeed people who are lacking judgment are excessively ego driven or are just polain stupid, but in those cases where they will make the wrong decision, they'd have ignored a "NO" anyway. That is preferrable to trying to protect people by saying "NO" and restricting them from the information they need to make their own decision.

What the OP got in this thread was a bunch of excuses from people with little or no cave training as to why diving in this cave was no problem. This is the problem with these forums. If someone posts in the CAVE DIVING forum on scubaboard the only people who should be giving advice are people who have backgrounds in CAVE DIVING. A CAVE DIVER points this out and you call him a jerk.

I don't hang out on the wreck diving forum and give people bad advice, I don't hang out on the DIR forum and tell them they need to put button gauges on their stage bottles. That's because I don't have any wreck training or experience and do not have any GUE training and only have limited experience based on talking with GUE divers and reading material. It makes you look like an idiot when you talk about something you have very little knowledge of

In your post to me are many veiled and not so veiled insults. Because I have not been decompression diving in open water as long as you, havent survived as many trips around the sun as you, I have the hubris of youth? Give me a break. You are further suggesting I am a "chest pounding primadonna". You are the one who has to tell everyone how many years he has been doing this and that in open water and how he is going to take this class and that class. I don't talk about my diving and how long I have been doing it online because I don't have to. I have the benefit of being right.

The most important thing in cave diving is when you start out, take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth.
 
So what you are doing is threatening to have people disciplined when they point out that the depth of your knowledge on a subject is shallow? But you can still call other SB members jerks with impunity because you have SB Staff next to your name? Bravo.
You'll note I'm not modding this thread. I am however pointing out you are incorrect in thinking attacks are ok just because it is an internet forum. Members point that out to people who step over the line every day - its nice as it keeps the modding to a minimum.

I am glad to hear you survived a decade of deep air diving (You are not certified to dive trimix so I can only assume that that is how you are getting into any kind of deco obligation in OW) but that has nothing to do with cave diving or your experience with regard to issues surrounding cave diving.
Very true, I had three trips fall apart in pursuit of a trimix cert before I decided that there are few wrecks where I'd use it anyway. And to be honest if I go that route in the future, I'll be doing it with a cave orientation.

However, I am not sure why you bring it up as tri mix has it has nothing to with chandeleir cave. Also, in case you missed it on the way, it is not hard to get into deco at depths of a lot less than 130'. Why mention it anyway?

The cave community has spent decades trying to spread the message that if you were going to do this kind of diving be trained for it. A cavern course is economical and I have never heard of anyone regretting the money spent on it. It is important to have a consistant message. It is never OK to tell people that "this is an overhead environment but you probably wont die if you dive this particular place so it is OK". That is violating Rule #1 of accident analysis, be trained for the diving you do. Once you start people off on the assumption that there are exceptions to the rules thats when you get people using unsafe gas planning, not running guidelines, etc.
Please read Lynn's post above and review the rest of the thread. Usually when someone is using absolutes like "Never" they are at risk of being wrong because they are not thinking about what they are saying, just repeating what they have heard.

The majority of opinion here in this thread would point out that you are mistaken in the assumption that this dive could not be done by an suitably experienced OW diver. I know Bill personally and I know Lynn, Bill and myself are all cave trained. The difference of opinion regarding chandeleir cave I think lies in whether you feel that being trained for this dive requires overhead training on general principle or whether you instead make an individual assessment of the dive itself and analyze whether overhead techniques are essential for the dive. In my experience, an individual analysis of the conditions, the demands of the dive and your condition and ability that particular day is something you should be doing on EVERY dive as just having a card that says you are qualified is not enough. I am pretty sure you will agree with that. The reasoning that this dive could potentially be done safely by an OW diver is just an extension of that.

Read my original analysis, read Lynn's post again, read Bill's personal experience and at least consider the reoprts of two other divers who have actually been there even if they are not cave trained.

Because I have not been decompression diving in open water as long as you, haven't survived as many trips around the sun as you, I have the hubris of youth? Give me a break. You are further suggesting I am a "chest pounding primadonna". You are the one who has to tell everyone how many years he has been doing this and that in open water and how he is going to take this class and that class. I don't talk about my diving and how long I have been doing it online because I don't have to. I have the benefit of being right.
Your last sentence says it all. If someone does not want to be called immature they always have the option of not acting that way. There is always more to learn, no one ever knows it all, and there is usually more than one right way to do just about everything. But it is hard to see that at age 24.

I am sorry we disagree, but I have the advantage of having been 24 as well as being 43. In 19 years, assuming you dive prudently, pay attention and keep an open mind you will most likely have the benefit of also being 43, although sadly it is not guarenteed. Call me then and we'll talk about how differently you see life after an additonal 19 years of living it.

The most important thing in cave diving is when you start out, take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth.
Absolutely.
 
OP,

Recommendation, do not look for advice in online forums. Its obvious none of us will come to conclusions with each other. Contact a cave instructor and ask them what they think.

-Tony DC
 
However, I am not sure why you bring it up as tri mix has it has nothing to with chandeleir cave. Also, in case you missed it on the way, it is not hard to get into deco at depths of a lot less than 130'. Why mention it anyway?

Neither does 10 years of decompression diving 20 years of diving or 43 years of converting oxygen into carbon dioxide. Why did you bring it up?

Please read Lynn's post above and review the rest of the thread. Usually when someone is using absolutes like "Never" they are at risk of being wrong because they are not thinking about what they are saying, just repeating what they have heard.

The majority of opinion here in this thread would point out that you are mistaken in the assumption that this dive could not be done by an suitably experienced OW diver. I know Bill personally and I know Lynn, Bill and myself are all cave trained. The difference of opinion regarding chandeleir cave I think lies in whether you feel that being trained for this dive requires overhead training on general principle or whether you instead make an individual assessment of the dive itself and analyze whether overhead techniques are essential for the dive. In my experience, an individual analysis of the conditions, the demands of the dive and your condition and ability that particular day is something you should be doing on EVERY dive as just having a card that says you are qualified is not enough. I am pretty sure you will agree with that. The reasoning that this dive could potentially be done safely by an OW diver is just an extension of that.

Read my original analysis, read Lynn's post again, read Bill's personal experience and at least consider the reoprts of two other divers who have actually been there even if they are not cave trained.

There are a lot of dives OW divers can do if everything goes right. Its a question of consistency, which is what I have maintained throughout this: The message needs to be if you want to dive in an overhead get overhead training. The fact remains that if someone has an issue in one of the sumps and they want to GET OUT they are still a scuba dive (in a cave) away from safety.

If people want the OK to do an overhead dive without training while OW divers play cheerleader do it somewhere other than the Cave Diving forum.
 
I know Bill personally and I know Lynn, Bill and myself are all cave trained.

DA,
Sorry if this sounds like I am being an @$$ but you are not CAVE trained yet. You need to pass the full cave course. After that you can consider yourself cave trained.

Secondly, Daedalus is one who actually cares and gives good advice(he's a friend) so that's the reason I know this. Sometimes we locals get mad with questions like the OP because we dive the caves on a daily basis and know the risks. We are the one's who are most affected by the death of untrained divers in caves. Unfortunately on forums some new cave divers are the most vocal ones, ie the one's with the least experience. This sometimes makes the whole cave community look bad, but in general we care about the safety of divers because we are extremely saftey minded. Inkdiver was not trying to personally attack someone in my opinion, yes it came across harsh, but he's right to a certain extent that non cave trained divers should not be handing out advice to other divers. We all need to dive within our limits of training and apparently we need to post within the limits of our training.
 
It is never OK to tell people that "this is an overhead environment but you probably wont die if you dive this particular place so it is OK". That is violating Rule #1 of accident analysis, be trained for the diving you do. Once you start people off on the assumption that there are exceptions to the rules thats when you get people using unsafe gas planning, not running guidelines, etc.

The most important thing in cave diving is when you start out, take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth.
Well, you certainly have strong oppinions but this is a forum and you don´t get to decide what is, or is not ok to tell other people. If you think this is the way things work then I understand your frustration (but I don´t really sympathize with it)...

What some people in this thread are saying is that this is not a cave dive and so there is no need for cave training to dive it. Feel free to disagree. It´s ok if you think that anything that looks like a cave dive should be treated like one, just don´t expect all other divers to agree with you (cave trained or otherwise)...

I agree with your last point, something we should all try to think about...
 
Hmmm... hmmm... interesting...
Y'all might find the discussion on running a line at Jackson Blue interesting, too :)
Or we could discuss taking OW divers by the thousands down to the gate (about 400' from open water and 110' deep) at Vortex.
Or some of the guided cenote dives in Mexico...
All violate the basic rule(s) of cave diving.
All are a good deal safer than sky diving, probably.
Personally, I'm for a realistic assessment and presentation of the risk, then step aside and let the individual decide. The problem comes when the presentation really needs to be a 10 hour course.
Rick
 
Or some of the guided cenote dives in Mexico...
I did one of those (after cave training) and I have to say that what I saw on those dives were some of the scariest things Ive seen in diving...

OW divers with poor bouyancy control and the guides only "qualification" was OWI and the fact that he/the center charged for the experience...I was also told that the real cave diving signs were too "difficult" for "regular divers" which is why they had invented their own...

The "guided" dives I were on where definetely cave dives and nothing else...
 
DA,
Sorry if this sounds like I am being an @$$ but you are not CAVE trained yet. You need to pass the full cave course. After that you can consider yourself cave trained.
Don't over state the case, I never claimed to be full trained, just trained in an overhead cave environment. Picking at the semantics does not change the basic argument as it pertains to the cave in question.

However I agree with you though in the sense that you can always gain more training and experience, and even Full Cave is not a final destination for some people and probably will not be for me.

Just be careful about raising the bar whenever it is convenient minimizing the training of anyone with less than you or whose opinion may differ. And of course, if you take what you said seriously, assuming I pass in January, just 8 dives in 4 days during a full cave course will *magically* make me cave trained by your stated Full Cave standard. There is a lot more to it than just a card. 8 dives and 4 days does not confer the ability for critical thinking or provide much experience.

Neither does 10 years of decompression diving 20 years of diving or 43 years of converting oxygen into carbon dioxide. Why did you bring it up?
It's hard to explain until you've lived it. I have learned something on nearly every dive and nearly every day. the sum total of that is hard to explain and I would not have even understood the magnitude of that at age 24 - and at 24 I had an awful lot of responsibilty compared to the average 24 year old. At 43, I am awfully glad to have experienced the last 19 years it as it is a lot more than just converting O2 to CO2.

As I said before, call me in 19 years and assuming we can still find it, we'll revisit this post and see how your attitudes, opinions, the way you to come to know things and the way you problem solve and make decisions have changed.
 
Don't over state the case, I never claimed to be full trained, just trained in an overhead cave environment. Picking at the semantics does not change the basic argument as it pertains to the cave in question.

Sorry, you in fact did state that you were Cave trained.

However I agree with you though in the sense that you can always gain more training and experience, and even Full Cave is not a final destination for some people and probably will not be for me.

Agreed the Cave card should never be a final destination. One should always practice and improve their skills.

Just be careful about raising the bar whenever it is convenient minimizing the training of anyone with less than you or whose opinion may differ. And of course, if you take what you said seriously, assuming I pass in January, just 8 dives in 4 days during a full cave course will *magically* make me cave trained by your stated Full Cave standard. There is a lot more to it than just a card. 8 dives and 4 days does not confer the ability for critical thinking or provide much experience.

Not minimizing your cert level at all. You will in fact be Cave trained if you pass the class, which makes you Cave certified, maybe just not Cave qualified without some additional experience.

Pm when you come down for you class, I will be glad to dive with you at your present level or after your class. I actually enjoy diving with new(cave) divers.
 
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