Cave Dive yes Overhead ?

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RikRaeder

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Saw a chance for a free dive at Chandelier Cave, Palau, in Scuba Diving Magazine.
Sam's Tours: Palau Diving Micronesia Island Hopping
So this is obviously a cave, but would you consider it an overhead environment? I was wondering what the cave community opinion is of this site.
I'm figuring that Scuba Diving Magazine isn't exactly aimed at tech divers so many must have done this dive succesfully without cave training, so I've decided that I think I can handle it as it's a closed system and there's plenty of access to surface air. Also, I don't recall reading about any cave fatalities there. I would, however, like to hear from those with more training and experience.
 
Given that there are air pockets over the entire route - and from the pictures of people breathing it, the air appears to be breathable - I would say it is not, strictly speaking, an overhead environment. Total penetration also appears to be less than 150'. Depending upon the day light conditions and the refelctivity of the bottom and walls, it may or may not be completely dark toward the back. I suspect it is not.

That said, not knowing enough about it is ample reason to treat it with extreme caution. At best it might be ok for an OW diver going along with a guide who is familiar with it, at worst it could kill you.

Haloclines can get interesting and kill visibilty and if you silt it out, can you still get out? Also, what impact to tides, waves and currents have on it? Easy to get into does not always equal easy to get out of. If it were me I'd still treat it like a cavern dive and run a line, especially since I am not familiar with it and I'd be sure I had local input on the actual conditions.
 
So this is obviously a cave, but would you consider it an overhead environment? ...it's a closed system and there's plenty of access to surface air

I'm not familiar with the site either, but I would disagree with the previous poster about their definition of overhead: if it has direct (vertical) access to the (true) surface (which this dive doesn't), it's not overhead; if it doesn't - and this dive doesn't - then it is (strictly speaking or otherwise) an overhead dive

Surface access isn't just about air pockets, no matter how breathable they are
 
Thanks for the input. I had pretty much the same thoughts as Aquamaster although I'm not versed in such possible dangers. It's a guided dive, and as I've said, it seems a lot of people go there every day so I'm guessing it's not a widow maker. I am planning on making further enquiries before I decide, but was interested in what real cavers thought. I wouldn't venture into a place like that on my own, that's for sure.
 
"CHANDELIER CAVE

Dive Site:
• A Cave system made up of five separate, connecting chambers with air pockets (4 are water-filled)"

Cave = Overhead.

This is no different then what sump divers do, sump diving is still cave diving and should not be taking lightly. Unless you have been trained in an overhead environment, I would not do this dive.

Dive Safe,
-Tony DC
 
I'd suggest avoiding the temptation to compare it to sump diving or too get too religious about the definition of an overhead in this particular instance.

If you look at the diagram it is pretty obvious that you could ascend directly to breathable air from any point in the "cave" (although I think "cavern" may be more accurate. Granted, that is still not the "surface", but it gives you a lot more time and a lot more options to deal with routine failures in a more or less normal OW go to the surface and sort it out fashion. Consider the Bonne Terre Mine. Same basic deal - guided dives in areas of the mine where you can make a direct ascent to breathable air, where an OW cert and a guide is all that is required.

In contrast, on the average sump dive, you will have to proceed horizontally to the next open air space. In addition, the odds are good that the cave is in fact a cave - not a cavern with daylight as the primary light source. That is much more demanding than either of the above mentioned sites and the ony commonality is the presence of air filled rooms/passages.

Also consider the Ginnie Ballroom. It is clearly an overhead environment in the traditional definition of "overhead" but due to exceptional circumstances (that are potentially controversial among the cave commnuity) the owners of Ginnie consider it to be an appropriate open water dive and the accidents statistics would tend to bear that out. It is not all bad either as it gives suitably skilled OW divers an opportunity to experience some of what diving in a cave is like without all of the risks normally associated with cave and cavern diving. Chandelier "Cave" may offer a similar opportunity.

In short there is enough diversity on the planet to pretty much ensure that there will be areas that are not always ammenable to the traditional overhead definition, and more importantly where the unique requirements and demands of an overhead environment to not fully apply.

Again I would recommend caution and ensure that the following questions can be answered before deciding to make such a dive with an OW cert.

1. Can you make a direct ascent to breathable air at any point in the dive?
2. Is daylight visible from any point in the dive in the event all the lights fail?
3. Is there any possibility of visibility dropping to the point that navigation out of the cave would be problematic for an OW diver without the guide's assistance?
4. Is there a continuous guideline to the surface?
5. Are there any tidal, wave or flow conditions that may make an exit difficult?
 
I'd thought of points 1, 2 and 3...and since reading the responses here will inquire into points 4 and 5. I do, in fact, have some overhead training and my primary concern was direct access to clean, unlimited air (I call that the surface). I had assumed, being a guided dive, that number five was a given, but upon further reading and reflecting, I guess I'd better not engage in that dangerous habit (assuming). I'll certainly double check on those points before making my final decision.
I've dived the Grotto in Saipan (about 20% of my logged dives) which is at least a cavern I suppose. The Grotto has ample openings, seems quite impossible to silt out (Saipan in general has quite large and heavy bottom material and you need to try really hard to raise even noticiable visual obstruction), there is ample natural light even on rainy days, both entry and exit surface access is always visible and the general topography is quite expansive. While there are some connected systems at that site I wouldn't go near, the main dive is pretty foolproof, albeit an "advanced" site, and I don't know of a single fatality or even serious incident excepting people who have entered the dark, narrow, scary cave systems nearby.
I guess I'll ask and consider and weigh the risks. Thanks again all.
 
I'd suggest avoiding the temptation to... get too religious about the definition of an overhead in this particular instance

If you look at the diagram it is pretty obvious that you could ascend directly to breathable air from any point in the "cave"

I don't want to start a long diatribe about it, but:

Access to 'breathable air' (which may or may not be 1. there or 2. breathable) is not the same as surface access - where there can be boat, medical and other support available

While I'm sure everyone would agree that there are varying degrees of danger and difficulty in overhead diving, overhead is overhead as far as I'm concerned. That's not being religious, pedantic or anything else. It is what it is

I'm not saying this dive is or isn't suitable for OW divers, I'm not saying you should have a cave cert to do it, I'm just saying it's an overhead dive, and that adds complications that you don't get with a non-overhead dive

If you have a diver in that cave, cavern, whatever you choose to call it, who has a serious problem, bottom line is you're a dive away from the surface & outside help

Getting to breathable air is not the solution to every problem
 
If you have a diver in that cave, cavern, whatever you choose to call it, who has a serious problem, bottom line is you're a dive away from the surface & outside help

That is an extremely sobering way of putting it. Well said. Thanks again.
 
Saw a chance for a free dive at Chandelier Cave, Palau, in Scuba Diving Magazine.
Sam's Tours: Palau Diving Micronesia Island Hopping
So this is obviously a cave, but would you consider it an overhead environment? I was wondering what the cave community opinion is of this site.
I'm figuring that Scuba Diving Magazine isn't exactly aimed at tech divers so many must have done this dive succesfully without cave training, so I've decided that I think I can handle it as it's a closed system and there's plenty of access to surface air. Also, I don't recall reading about any cave fatalities there. I would, however, like to hear from those with more training and experience.

I looked at the PDF and it looks really cool and doesn't look like you go in much more than 100' or so. I'd go if I could run my own line from the entrance. Other than that, I'd stay out. That probably makes me a wuss, but it also makes me a live wuss with a happy wife.

Disclaimer - I'm a wreck diver, not a cave diver, so my opinion about a cave probably isn't worth much.


Terry
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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