Cave Dive yes Overhead ?

[InkDiver]

It is absolutely a cave dive!! Not only does the direct access to the surface issue come into play, but also one that has not been emphasized.....light. According to the diagram show, there is NO WAY that visible light from the surface could reach you. If it can't, then this is a cave dive, period. In order to be anything other than a cave, ie, a cavern, there must be visible light from the surface.

Personally, I have a problem with sites that are considered OW friendly when they are really caves. There is a reason that there are certain standards applied to cave diving, and failure to follow these is just asking for trouble.

 

[Cave Bum]

Also consider the Ginnie Ballroom. It is clearly an overhead environment in the traditional definition of "overhead" but due to exceptional circumstances (that are potentially controversial among the cave commnuity) the owners of Ginnie consider it to be an appropriate open water dive and the accidents statistics would tend to bear that out. It is not all bad either as it gives suitably skilled OW divers an opportunity to experience some of what diving in a cave is like without all of the risks normally associated with cave and cavern diving. Chandelier "Cave" may offer a similar opportunity.

As I've pointed out to the owners and staff at Ginnie Springs, Ginnie Springs IS NOT a certifying agency and DOES NOT have the right to excuse divers from the limits of their certification. The ballroom is not an open water dive. Additionally, they have had fatalities in the Ginnie Ballroom, including free divers from what I understand. I'm not familiar with Chandlelier Cave but the entire concept, breathing off of air pockets, is against what we teach in cavern & cave diving.

 

[TSandM]

Honestly, I think DA Aquamaster has done the best analysis.

Why do we try to keep untrained divers out of overhead environments? Because anybody can swim INTO a cave, but it may take some significant training to get OUT. Why? Because you may not be able to get out if you can't see, and because you have to solve any problems, whether they're equipment-related or emotional, where you are.

In this particular overhead environment, a panicked bolt to the surface is possible almost everywhere (a few points, it appears you might hit your head before you slid to the surface). It does not appear that you could silt out the cave and lose all visibility. There do not appear to be any side tunnels that you could get confused about. The total penetration is very short, so even if all the lights of all the divers failed at once, you could probably follow a wall and still make it back out (even if you started in the wrong direction).

This reminds me of the Cathedrals in Lanai. Yes, they are overhead environments, but the likelihood of running into any of the specific hazards we train for in cave diving is vanishingly low.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

I've been in it.

The first time I entered it was 1983. As mentioned, it is a guided dive for tourists. Some of the "air pockets" inside it are relatively large. Tourists have been routinely guided into it and out of it since long before and (obviously) after 1983...its as well known an attraction as Jellyfish Lake, the Blue Corner, and the invasion beach at Peleliu.

Its a cave environment, as defined above, primarily because you're out of sight of the ambient daylight. But there is open water above your head most of the dive, and - as mentioned - there are around 6-8 of you together being herded like cats - it looks like a disco ball is turning overhead.

Go if you want - stay out if you want. The attraction does not fall into easily defined categories. There are other similar sites - swim throughs at ~100' in Cozumel, volcano lava tubes in Hawaii, etc.

Each diver should dive to their individual comfort level and training.

In the immortal words of Dirty Harry, "...a man has got to know his limitations!"

YMMV.

Doc

 

[Damselfish]

I've been in it too.

I agree with DA Aquamaster, it's not a situation to get religious about. You can't tell everything from a diagram and there's a reason they've been taking people through the thing for years. It's pretty benign. Probably way riskier to drive on the highway around here.

As always you can analyze forever as to why someone should or shouldn't go in it. But I would say there is much more risk in many of the swim throughs in places like Cayman that are commonly done by OW divers - and yeah I know people have argued for hours about those too.

 

[InkDiver]

I've been in it too.

I agree with DA Aquamaster, it's not a situation to get religious about. You can't tell everything from a diagram and there's a reason they've been taking people through the thing for years. It's pretty benign. Probably way riskier to drive on the highway around here.

As always you can analyze forever as to why someone should or shouldn't go in it. But I would say there is much more risk in many of the swim throughs in places like Cayman that are commonly done by OW divers - and yeah I know people have argued for hours about those too.

I'm curious, what level of Cave training have you completed that would provide you with the basis to make that call? I have to say that it is a bit of a chuckle that people with no cave training feel so qualified. There sure are a lot of Internet Cave Divers these days.

 

[Damselfish]

I'm curious, what level of Cave training have you completed that would provide you with the basis to make that call? I have to say that it is a bit of a chuckle that people with no cave training feel so qualified. There sure are a lot of Internet Cave Divers these days.

I'm curious, when did you last dive this location? I have to say that it is a bit of a chuckle that people who have never been to a particular place feel they are experts on it because of what they have read on the Internet.

I don't claim it is completely risk free. Diving is not risk free. We've both expressed our opinion. Your followup sarcasm is pretty silly.

 

[InkDiver]

Nice way of avoiding the question. I guess your PADI Rescue Cert qualifies you to tell people, "Don't worry about it, even though it is in fact a cave, it's no big deal"

 

[Damselfish]

Which question am I avoiding? The rhetorical one which you have obviously already looked up in my profile already? Perhaps you should reread the part of the TOS about personal attacks.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

I'm curious, what level of Cave training have you completed that would provide you with the basis to make that call? I have to say that it is a bit of a chuckle that people with no cave training feel so qualified. There sure are a lot of Internet Cave Divers these days.

Ink,

With respect, I HAVE completed cave training courses, and my comment reflects my personal experience at diving the site in question.

Not to put too fine a point on your reference to internet divers, nor anyone's mention of avoiding questions, but HAVE you dived at Chandelier Cave in Palau?

Thanks in advance,

Doc