Cave Dive yes Overhead ?

[DA Aquamaster]

I was told the limits were 40 linear meters from the surface. Since we ran a line into the gundeck of the New York and I looked up and saw bulkhead rather than light I considered it overhead. Of course we could always see the exit, but would have to swim back to it rather than ascend directly. PADI overview says that you might do such a penetration in the course. While my trainer is full Tech and does deep penetrations regularly, I was taught to respect a light penetration as an overhead environment as well (and light penetration is all I do).

This came up in another thread and it appears PADI now does allow penetration up to 130 linear feet from open water, with provisions that you stay in the light zone, etc.

In that regard it is much like a cavern course - except I do not remember PADI Wreck as coming even remotely close to covering the line skills covered in a cavern course, nor do I know all that many PADI Wreck instructors who could/would teach them.

Personally, I think it is also pretty scary as I can think of a lot of wrecks where you could be be within 130 feet (verical plus horizontal) of the surface and be totally silted out in nothing flat. So much for a "light" penetration. In addition, in many areas, shallower wrecks have lower overall visibilty, so in areas where you could have more horizontal distance available for a penetration you could have worse overall conditions that would more than offset the additional time the shallower depth would give you to resolve a problem. If lost in zero viz 10 feet from an opening, you just as well be a mile from the opening if you can't find it.

Again, I have much more of a beef with blanket course limits that allow a graduate to potentially get into situations they can't handle than I do with the individuals making well informed decisions to dive in specific places that are within their capabilities.

Rule 1 does not pertain to just the limits associated with a card but rather to a careful decision made after considering all of the relevent factors and conditions on a given day at a given site for a given diver/team.

 

[Rick Murchison]

If you haven't read it yet, read the attached paper on "light penetration."
Rick

 

[ESG]

I was told the limits were 40 linear meters from the surface. Since we ran a line into the gundeck of the New York and I looked up and saw bulkhead rather than light I considered it overhead. Of course we could always see the exit, but would have to swim back to it rather than ascend directly. PADI overview says that you might do such a penetration in the course. While my trainer is full Tech and does deep penetrations regularly, I was taught to respect a light penetration as an overhead environment as well (and light penetration is all I do). If I don't need to plan and dive that as an overhead, well...Thanks for the heads up ESG. I can throw away my reel now!

Wreck Diver
an excerpt:
What you Learn
Techniques for diving exploring shipwrecks, and how to avoid common hazards
How to research and learn the background of your favorite wrecks
Wreck scuba diving equipment considerations
Considerations and techniques for entering intact wrecks

What agency are you an instructor for, anyway?

Like I said, not trying to insult anyone.

I also said, chime in if I am wrong, which I was.

I don't remember telling you to not treat something as an overhead, or to throw your reel away.

I am genuinely surprised that PADI allows this. A PADI wreck instructor needs 20 wreck dives and to certify 25 students to teach it. I don't feel that those standards are very high. Again, not trying to insult you or your instructor or PADI. I'm just a little surprised.

 

[sskasser]

If you haven't read it yet, read the attached paper on "light penetration."
Rick

Wow! Great write up, and scary as hell, too.

 

[RikRaeder]

Aquamaster:
As I mentioned, the Instructor I trained with is a real, live wreck diver. These guys are very tech, and very wreck. They trained me to the limits of the PADI Wreck course and I'm sure that I recieved much additional advice based on their experiences. I'm not saying I am super tech/wreck; just that the guys who trained me knew what they were doing. As I mentioned before, I ALWAYS weigh the risks of what I'm doing versus my experience, training, comfort level and general karma. I was trained for risk evaluation, line laying, silt out conditions, lost/broken line etc. I hope never to put those emergency skills to the test (ok, silt is probably a given, but...) but I did recieve RUDIMENTARY OVERHEAD TRAINING and therefore have SOME basis for judging overhead hazards. That is all I was referring to and hereby reaffirm that yes, I do have some overhead training. We always hear "It's all about the instructor." Well, I happened to have a very meticulous, thorough and experienced one so please don't let that fact that my training was sanctioned by PADI invalidate what I learned. I don't have any plans to dive the Repulse or Andria Doria, I'm just trying to do what I enjoy within the limits that are safe for me. Why do you assume that I was trained to the agency minimum and am not dead serious about what I do?
I realize that despite my rudimentary overhead training I AM NOT A CAVE DIVER. That's why I posted here and appreciated, as stated, the additional considerations that you brought to the table.

Not trying to insult anyone here but PADI Wreck is NOT an overhead course. If you were taken into an overhead by your instructor they should be reported to PADI. The only PADI sanctioned course that allows an overhead environment is Cavern.

Instructors? Chime in if I am wrong.

Please forgive the sarcastic nature of my reply, but you have to admit; your post was, perhaps, just a bit combative given that you were, in fact, mistaken.

Rick:
I'll have a look at your article now, thanks. I've read a few before and always enjoy your writing. I'm sure it will give me more to think about as a fledgling wreck diver.
Thanks for posting it.


Everyone else:
I have indeed gleaned all I can from this thread, methinks, so will retire to the shadows to watch and nap. Thanks again.

 

[RikRaeder]

Rick,
I've read that before, but thanks again. Not one of yours, but still a sobering read. When I say light penetration I'm talking about the 40 linear meters from the surface not just ambient illumination although that's part of it. (Not trying to profess, just letting you know what was included in my PADI training). I was taught to always run a line and to always be within arm's reach of it and know exactly where it is if not in contact with it. And I'm scared enough of overheads that I'll do just that, scoff as some "real" wreck divers may.

 

[RikRaeder]

Addendum: How about LITE penetration rather than LIGHT penetration.
Light versus deep...not light versus dark

 

[Tassie_Rohan]

I've dived chandelier cave several times.

There are large air chambers throughout the dive.

There is no silt and the vis is excellent.

If you turn off all lights at the end of the last chamber you can still see the faint glow of the entrance.

Being right off Sams wharf I'd estimate between 12 and 50 OW divers dive the cave every day, and have been doing so for at least the past 10 years (and probably a lot longer). Lets say around 40,000 open water divers have dived it.

Getting to the last chamber is apparently a challenging freedive. However if you feel the need to lay a line and follow full cave diving protocol in Chandelier then they won't stop you.

Cheers,
Rohan.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Yay! Some one who has been there finally answered the following questions:

1. It is basically a cavern rather than a cave (depsite the advertising hype - surprise, surprise) as it is all in the light zone.

2. Confirms large air chambers overhead throughout the dive.

3. No silt, excellent viz.

4. Heavily traveled by thousands of still extant OW divers.

That at least gives divers more information to make an informed choice.

Rikraeder - I was not intending to insult your level of training, just expressing my general concern that PADI has taken this approach with their wreck course and implications for divers deciding they can do "lite" or "light" penetration anywhere. Most PADI wreck instructors have not taken an advanced wreck, cavern or cave course and won't know diddly about running a line or the hazards of lite/light penetration and will fail to impart that to their students.

I'd argue there is no such thing as "Lite" penetration. If there were it would be like a "Lite" pregnancy - all the possible complications still exist and the probable outcome is still the same.