Cave Dive yes Overhead ?

[RikRaeder]

Well, thanks AGAIN everyone for responding. I have, in fact, gotten much more than I expected from this querrie. Ahem.

Daedalus, Your input as a trained Caver is greatly appreciated, however you have made three assumptions about the OP (that's me, smilin' RikRaeder) that I'd like to remedy. Remember, as a wise (and handsome and generally super-cool guy) recently said on this post: assuming is a dangerous habit.
#1

He knows this site is a cave but he is wondering if it is OK to go in because the people who want his money say one thing but the rules he has been trained to follow say another thing.

I'm sorry if I wasn't succinct enough in my orignal post, but what HE is really wondering is what additional concerns might there be. Please don't have such a low opinion of HIM that HE will follow either advice from the internet or rules that he was taught like dogma. He's a bit brighter than that I bet and probably weighs his own experience, training, and advice from others carefully to assess the risks and decide what he'll do.

#2

What the OP got in this thread was a bunch of excuses from people with no cave training as to why this cave is no problem...

Actually, I got a bit more than that. As I'd hoped, I've heard from people with formal cave training (whether completed or not; it's more than I have) and equally important for my purposes, people who have actually dived that site. There's nothing like experience, I always say. The advice has actually been on both sides of the issue (dive/don't dive). I've also recieved addtional information which will allow me to make a more informed decision for myself.

#3

If you want to dive in an overhead envrionment get overhead training.

I did mention above, in a rather short easy to read post, that I do have some overhead training. If you check my profile, it's listed there along with who I recieved it from and when. While it is only a meager PADI Wreck cert, the trainer is actually a very serious wreck diver who takes his classes very seriously and I'm sure that I recieved well more than the minimum of training. I certainly recieved enough to know a bit about the dangers of overhead environments. While I do not claim to know it all (please don't take that as a veiled insult) I certainly know enough to seek advice from those who know more to give me more information so I can make my own decision. I am not a cave diver, don't want to be a cave diver, and am not equating wreck diving with cave diving. That's why I'm asking cave divers.

Sorry for the digression, everyone. For those of you who have dived Chandeleir Cave, thank you for your input. It is important to me. For those of you cavers (with completed training or not) who have advised me one way or the other, thanks to you too. I'm learning a bit about risk evaluation from this thread if nothing else.

 

[ESG]

#3
I did mention above, in a rather short easy to read post, that I do have some overhead training. If you check my profile, it's listed there along with who I recieved it from and when. While it is only a meager PADI Wreck cert, the trainer is actually a very serious wreck diver who takes his classes very seriously and I'm sure that I recieved well more than the minimum of training. I certainly recieved enough to know a bit about the dangers of overhead environments.

Not trying to insult anyone here but PADI Wreck is NOT an overhead course. If you were taken into an overhead by your instructor they should be reported to PADI. The only PADI sanctioned course that allows an overhead environment is Cavern.

Instructors? Chime in if I am wrong.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Neither does 10 years of decompression diving 20 years of diving or 43 years of converting oxygen into carbon dioxide. Why did you bring it up?

You deserve a better answer than the one I gave above.

Please read this for exactly what it is as it requires an understanding of another logical fallacy. It is ENTIRELY true that nothing a diver does prior to cave training will adequately equip them for survival in a cave environment. That is not in disupte.

But it is a logical fallacy to conclude that the above statement means that all that prior experience counts for nothing and brings nothing to the table. For example, by the time I took cavern and Intro to Cave, I had 10 years of dry suit and doubles experience. The comment was made during the course that my buoynacy was excellent and that I was incredibly solid in the water. That level of ability developed prior to the course let me focus on the specifics of the course rather than on "basic" skills. My instructor stated at the end of the coruse I was ready for Full Cave if I wanted to pursue it immediately and I don't hink that would have been the case abscence my previous diving experience. I did not choose to do that preferring to gather more experience in caves before moving on and, again assuming I pass Full Cave, I will dive that cert very conservatively until I gain more experience as again the card itself means very little and is just one piece in a larger puzzle.

Beyond the dry suit and doubles skills, years of deep, techincal and commercial and zero viz dive experience also gave we a wealth of relevent experiece to draw from. For example what does it "feel" like to be neutrally buoyant in zero viz and what does it "feel" like when you are not?. It can't be explained but has to be learned and experienced over time. There are also psychological advantages. I knew from previous experience how I react under intense pressure and when heavily task loaded. Having a history of successfully resolving real world diving emergencies builds confidence and helps prevent you from wasting limited mental resources on unproductive thoughts, fears or emotions.

It also extends beyond purely diving experience. Flying experience and an instrument rating provided experience and insights into precision, managing stress, task loading, spatial skills and situational awareness that all have direct applications in a cave.

Then there is 20 additional years of progressively more responsible decisions including a great many that significantly impact the lives of others. Successfully doing that year in and year out changes the way you analyze issues and make decisions. If it does not you are not learning and are probably making some really bad decisions.

So to repeat myself, none of that is aqequate in the absence of formal training in a cave to prepare you to survive in a cave, but it all brings something to the dive. One of the biggest beefs I hear on the boards are divers who lack a high degree of refinement of basic diving skills but who at some point got a card that lets them be in a cave. Now, I have seen divers two years out of an OW cert who are exceptional in the water and I have seen others who have been divers for 20 years and still have very poor skills, but all other things being equal would you rather divers who decide to pursue cave training have less or more experience prior to pursuing that training?

I know in my case, I'd have loved to have had the time money, geopraphic advantage and opportunity to have gotten into cave diving in 1988, but in 2008 I know I am also very glad to have had all of that other varied experience as well.

In 20 years you will also look back on that 20 years and appreciate what ever that 20 years of experinece brought you. I truly do not mean any of this as a put down for your age, or to lord over you with my vastly greater wisdom or experience or some similar load of BS, but rather to hopefully help you get a glimpse of what happnes to your perspective and problem solving techniques as you gain experience - an artifact of continued O2 to CO2 conversion that quite frankly plays a major role in ensuring that you continue to have the priviledge of creating even more CO2.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Not trying to insult anyone here but PADI Wreck is NOT an overhead course. If you were taken into an overhead by your instructor they should be reported to PADI. The only PADI sanctioned course that allows an overhead environment is Cavern.

Instructors? Chime in if I am wrong.

That is very true. The course standards for PADI wreck are very thin and are in fact designed to keep you OUT of a soft or hard overhead environment not teach you how to go into one. It is most definitely not overhead training.

 

[Daedalus]

Please don't have such a low opinion of HIM that HE will follow either advice from the internet or rules that he was taught like dogma. He's a bit brighter than that I bet and probably weighs his own experience, training, and advice from others carefully to assess the risks and decide what he'll do.

OK, I give up. Everyone do whatever you want.

In less than three years in the sport Ive met and spoken with about a half dozen people in cave diving face to face who later ended up drowned, dead. All but one of them because they thought the rules didn't apply to them. I don't see the trend ending any time soon.

 

[Rick Murchison]

OK, I give up...

Don't give up! "Never give up!" (Exley)
Your goal is worthy; our disagreements are nits; your principles are sound; stick to 'em.

... Everyone do whatever you want...

Ah, young Grasshopper, the dawn of enlightenment is in the East... Freedom is the American Way...

... In less than three years in the sport Ive met and spoken with about a half dozen people in cave diving face to face who later ended up drowned, dead. All but one of them because they thought the rules didn't apply to them. I don't see the trend ending any time soon.

And that's "the rest of the story"...
Caves can kill you quicker than just about anything in diving; the rules are not "more guidelines than rules" (apologies to Captain Barbosa and to all who cringe at (clever) puns ). Assuming that your vast experience, rank, C-Card collection, age, reputation, doctorate, beauty, popularity or olympian physique can grant immunity to the consequences of breaking those rules can bite you squarely in the tail in half a heartbeat.
On the other hand, no two caverns/caves are alike, and the consequences of ignoring a rule vary with the site and the dive team. Is the site silt free? Does the team include a guide(s)? An instructor? Is there gas readily available in the event of a massive gas supply failure? Could I get out on my own after someone kicked me in the face, broke my mask and scratched my eyeballs? If the one guide has a heart attack can I lead the team out?
Consider that we (cavers) all ventured into the overhead environment for the first time as open water divers; we have all done guided dives beyond our training level with our instructors during training! That's how we got trained in the first place.
So... are there sites and protocols in place where the risk level is acceptably low for open water divers to "violate the rules of safe cave diving?"
There's a positively mountainous pile of data that says "Yes!"
On the other hand, there is a positively mountainous pile of data that says "violating even one of these rules can kill you."
So it obviously depends... on your training and experience, the site, the conditions (including daylight), the accommodating protocol, the supervision.
The key is in ferreting out the difference, conducting due diligence and making an informed decision based on the real risk.
Rick

 

[RikRaeder]

... If you were taken into an overhead by your instructor they should be reported to PADI.

I was told the limits were 40 linear meters from the surface. Since we ran a line into the gundeck of the New York and I looked up and saw bulkhead rather than light I considered it overhead. Of course we could always see the exit, but would have to swim back to it rather than ascend directly. PADI overview says that you might do such a penetration in the course. While my trainer is full Tech and does deep penetrations regularly, I was taught to respect a light penetration as an overhead environment as well (and light penetration is all I do). If I don't need to plan and dive that as an overhead, well...Thanks for the heads up ESG. I can throw away my reel now!

http://www.padi.com/scuba/padi-courses/diver-level-courses/view-all-padi-courses/wreck-diver/default.aspx
an excerpt:
What you Learn
Techniques for diving exploring shipwrecks, and how to avoid common hazards
How to research and learn the background of your favorite wrecks
Wreck scuba diving equipment considerations
Considerations and techniques for entering intact wrecks

What agency are you an instructor for, anyway?

 

[OneBrightGator]

OK, I give up. Everyone do whatever you want.

In less than three years in the sport Ive met and spoken with about a half dozen people in cave diving face to face who later ended up drowned, dead. All but one of them because they thought the rules didn't apply to them. I don't see the trend ending any time soon.

Amen...

All I ask anymore is please try not to **** up the viz when you die.

 

[Tortuga68]

You forgot "Can I have your watch?"


Exley died in a cave too

 

[Rick Murchison]

...Exley died in a cave too

True but irrelevant. (it was a depth/gas thingie)
Rick