Catalina U/W park dive report.

[drbill]

Ken I usually do make valid points, they just usually go over your head ;-) VBG

I accept your comments about me re: my knowledge of the Nitrox issue and shops in general. However, in this highly litiginous society of ours I have full sympathy for those shops who prefer to protect themselves from potential litigation. I acknowledge that I am not well-versed in Nitrox issues (don't dive it myself because it would not benefit 80% of my diving), and take no issue with your criticisms there.

Personally, I continue to bristle at the DIR philosophy as interpreted by many including yourself. I have no doubt that you are a better technical diver than I am... I make no claims to being the perfect diver myself, just a biologist who dives. However I don't suggest anyone dive the way I do (in fact I recommend against others diving solo or with my particular dive equipment configuration) or that it is wrong to not dive my style. With that said, I think the DIR philosophy has much to offer divers even those like myself, and I will feel free to adopt the things that make sense for my diving style... and reject those that don't.

As for Nitrox stickers (or other mixed gas indicators), if one wishes to deceive by claiming that their tank has never been defiled, this suggests the very reason for stickers and the fill stations reliance on honesty. If divers choose to dishonor the intent of the stickers and put others in potential jeopardy, then they can damn well suffer the consequences. I would never consider doing such a thing, yet you seem to either accept the reality that it is happening or acknowledge that a number of divers are intentionally dishonest to save themselves a little "inconvenience." Shame on those divers and shame on those who condone such deception.

I have lived my life based upon principles of honesty I learned from my grandfather and father. I would never knowingly misrepresent myself, my equipment or anything else.

 

[MHK]

I accept your comments about me re: my knowledge of the Nitrox issue and shops in general. However, in this highly litiginous society of ours I have full sympathy for those shops who prefer to protect themselves from potential litigation.

Bill,

It's clear to me that you are itching for confrontation, but I hate to disappoint you . You & I have never met, we rarely interact on this board, and short of that I have no interaction with you whatsoever. You seem willing to selctively pick and choose tidbits of my comments and then run with them in a direction unintended. I ask you once again to re-read my comments. I have been consistent in saying that I don't take issue with them for having the nitrox fill policy that they have. My bigger issue is that the policy is needed because of a problem in the industry. I'd rather look at solving the problem, or identitfying the reasons why there is a problem. You seem to want to argue in cyber space. Bill, sorry to disappoint you, but I have much better things to do with my time.

Later

 

[H2Andy]

OK folks,

This is not one of those boards where you can flame people at will.

I have removed one post and portions of one post which constituted personal
attacks and violated our Terms of Service.

Further threats telling MHK that he will never get a fill at a Catalina dive shop again or any serious personal attacks will not be tolerated and temporary bans from ScubaBoard will apply.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Let me first say I've seen pushy, self centered, jack***** divers. I've been run over by others trying to first off the Express, etc. ugly, unnecessary behavior. I've also been routinely helped by diver's I've never met before, given a hand with my gear, etc. Divers run the gammit.

My experiences have been very good at Casino on the whole. I've never been treated rudely by CDS, have had excellent service from Scuba Luv, and have never been unduly hassled by the Express Crew, even when traveling with doubles, scooters etc.

When I arrive at the Express terminal the first thing I do is find somebody in authority and ask them specifically if they have any special handling requirements for my goods. This varies from terminal to terminal, and boat to boat. I do what ever they ask.

For fills at Casino Point I make sure I hussle my tanks straight to the fill station, check to make sure the operator is familar with filling doubles (don't touch the isolator!) and then go relax. Even on fairly busy days my tanks have been ready before I was. I bring exact change, no tabs, no worries. I like full fills, but I'm not going to sweat a few 100 psi.

If a tank leaves our posession as "full" with ANYTHING other than 21% we are neglagent for that airfill and who is to say that the increased O2 level had absolutely nothing to do with the incident or the divers reactions to a given situation which led to the accident (we all know how laweyrs can be).

Jeff,

I respect completely CDS's right to operate as they best see fit, and any business unfortunately has to keep liability exposure to a realistic minimum.

I do have a few questions.

If you don't analyze and or blow down all tanks how do you have any idea what's in any given tank leaving your fill station? Refusing to fill marked Nitrox tanks actually increases the likelyhood that somebody will have Nitrox in an unmarked tank. Top off a bottle of 32% with air and you'll still have greater than 21%...... Was that elevated O2 due to accidental transfilling? I'd hate to try to explain that one to a jury.

Next up our whips at the fill station do not have back pressure valves on them which means that the pressures of all five tanks hooked up in the bucket equlize with each other, this will change (even just slightly) all of the five tanks O2 content, now we are five times more likely to have a problem.

Check valves are cheap. I recognise that the chances of somebody having a bottle with a high percentage of O2, at a pressure high enough to transfill my bottle to any significant amount is very remote. Having said that, if your equipment and operations decisions are based on reducing your liability exposure check valves seem a trivial addition.

Tobin

 

[MHK]

If you don't analyze and or blow down all tanks how do you have any idea what's in any given tank leaving your fill station? Tobin

I was hoping no one was going to suggest this idea, however, you are 100% correct. In terms of one of the things a policy of this nature purports to resolve is the prevention of top-offs. The only way to insure that would be to make sure everyone has an empty tank. Imagine the problems associated with that. The other thing to consider, is that while I agree a check valve should be put into place, given the multiple tanks being filled at the station, it would be very difficult for one bottle to make much of a material difference. For example, assume a diver shows up wanting a "top off" to make a Nitrox 32%, that diver would only have 420psi of 02 in his tank. In the scheme of that fill station, I don't see 420psi making a material difference, but I agree what harm does the check valve do, and it is pretty inexpensive to install.


Furthermore, while check valves and bleeding tanks down, may solve the top off problem, they don't solve for the other problem this type of policy purports to prevent, which is the 02 cleaning and potential for fire. Again, I go back to education as a way to prvent this, not ad hoc ideas like yellow and green stickers. It takes 3 things to cause the fire, so which of the 3 is prevented by the yellow and green sticker? Answer = none..

Regards,

 

[drbill]

OK folks,

This is not one of those boards where you can flame people at will.

I have removed one post and portions of one post which constituted personal
attacks and violated our Terms of Service.

Further threats telling MHK that he will never get a fill at a Catalina dive shop again or any serious personal attacks will not be tolerated and temporary bans from ScubaBoard will apply.

H2Andy...

My "attack" was in response to the following from MHK:

Ken I usually do make valid points, they just usually go over your head ;-) VBG"

I consider this a personal attack and request that it be likewise censored since mine was in response to his personal attack on Ken. IMHO a certain fairness is required here if there is to be any censorship.

MHK... I have no desire to confront. It is you who raised the issues in what I felt was a rather arrogant fashion. However, you are right... enough said on this point. Attitudes abound.

 

[Frank O]

Hmm, I didn't realize that PSI had gone to requiring O2 cleaning for tanks that see above 23.5% (speaking as a card-carrying PSI tank inspector). Is that new? I'd recalled that Luxfer had put out a bulletin stating the 23.5% requirement a year or two ago, but it sounded like a CYA ultra-conservative move. I thought historically the dive industry went with 40% as the threshold above which O2 cleaning was required. I just glanced at IANTD's online standards, and they're still quoting the 40% number. How about others in the industry -- for example, what's being taught in NAUI gas blending courses these days?

The NAUI and PADI shops where I get nitrox fills go with the 40% threshold. The business with stickers and O2 cleaning is pretty simple. If the tank's going to be partial pressure filled, or for any other reason see O2 above 40%, it needs to be O2 cleaned, and it gets an O2 clean sticker (not the big yellow and green thing). If anyone puts "regular" (Grade E) air in a tank with that sticker, they're supposed to remove the sticker to show that it's no longer oxygen clean. But if I'm going to get membrane or continuous-blending fills of less than 40%, I *don't* get an O2-clean sticker at vis time, and I use the tank interchangeably for air and/or nitrox under 40%. It would be a drag if the "industry" is being pulled toward an unnecessarily conservative standard (23.5%) as belt-and-suspenders protection against imagined lawsuits.

In a perfect world, all dive shops would pump membrane or continuous-blended nitrox, and all shops and boats would do all fills with oxygen-compatible air ....

 

[MHK]

H2Andy...

MHK... I have no desire to confront. It is you who raised the issues in what I felt was a rather arrogant fashion.

Bill,

I don't plan on wasting any more of my time with you on this subject, except to ask you one question, given the frequency with which you post, I assume you are familiar with cyber "language", so I ask you what does the following stand for:

;-)

VBG

When you figure the answers out, you'll see why no one else but you was offended, or believed my response to Ken was arrogant.

You may have the last word..

Regards,

 

[drbill]

Sigh, I just solve the problem by not diving Nitrox at all, although I do plan to get Nitrox certified in the future for greater understanding. I occasionally dive 5-6 "cool" water dives in a day and am invigorated rather than drained.

If someone has not affixed the appropriate warning sticker to their tank so they can bypass a fill station's policies then this is a deceptive practice by the tank owner. The fill station can't be (er, shouldn't be) held responsible.

I think I'm understanding the point MHK raised about the stickers. However, it does seem to be like saying that we shouldn't have posted speed limits on our highways because few people observe them (especially here in SoCal). The system only fails because people are dishonest (or ignorant).

 

[drbill]

Must admit I missed that until you posted this. I don't use cyber language or smilies because I was educated way before computers became common place! Heck, we were still using slide rules when I was in school! Must admit that does change the equation a bit and I'll apologize for not catching it initially. I don't know what the VBG means though and would welcome clarification.

Bill,

I don't plan on wasting any more of my time with you on this subject, except to ask you one question, given the frequency with which you post, I assume you are familiar with cyber "language", so I ask you what does the following stand for:

;-)

VBG

When you figure the answers out, you'll see why no one else but you was offended, or believed my response to Ken was arrogant.

You may have the last word..

Regards,