Catalina U/W park dive report.

[jetfixer]

However, there is a reason that locals on occasion resent divers. Divers, often by self admission, are not good tippers and are cheap (just look at me, I'm an icon for cheapness). I have heard of taxi drivers who have repeatedly hauled gear out to the dive park for dive groups, loaded and unloaded the gear from the taxi, and not received a single $ for their effort. Wait staff in the restaurants have frequently commented to me about how cheap some divers are. They either don't tip or leave very small tips of 5% (OK if the service doesn't warrant it of course, but the wait staff is taxed on the assumed average of 8%).

Tipping has been beat to death on other threads, so hopefully that issue will not overtake this one. However, I am bothered about this attitude on Catalina. Especially towards divers in particular. Are there many other groups that volunteer time to harbor clean-ups? Or any other clean up for that matter? I understand this is not your view Dr. Bill, but the reflection of the attitude of the local community toward divers. Maybe you could help them to understand that the diving community gives back in many other ways.

 

[headhunter]

Thanks for the reply, Jeff.

That helps me understand the perception that leads to these rules.

Christian

 

[Ken Kurtis]

Here ya go:

I was wondering how long it would take for my name to get dragged into this . . .



But Michael actually does make a valid point: Any "O2-cleaned" designation or other sticker on a tank only tells you it was good to go right at the time the sticker was applied. It doesn't mean that it's still O2-cleaned right now because you don't necessarily know the history of the fills since the original sticker was applied.

Another way to look at this is by thinking of a VIP sticker. All that sticker means is that the tank passed inspection at the time the sticker was issued. It doesn't mean the tank doesn't have corrosion in it months after the sticker was issued.

But for shops, the issue isn't as simple as that. We ARE geld to standards that are issued by the Compressed Gas Association. And we all try to follow the guidelines as laid down by Professional Scuba Inspectors who are the only federally-licensed/approved guys doing this.

The short version: If it's above 23.5%, the tank must be O2-cleaned AND cannot be filled with standard air. (See 2A and 2B in the link below.)

And this whole system means we have to rely on you, the diver, to be honest about what you do with the tank. So perhaps you can understand when those of us who fill these things get a little nervous when we routinely see posted comments from divers bragging about how they "fool" us with unlabelled tanks that actually have nitrox to get an air fill, or using labeled tanks and swapping between both air and nitrox.

But rather than just babble with opinion, here's a link to the PSI website and the actuals standards that fill operators will be held to if something goes wrong:
http://www.psicylinders.com/library/Current/eanx.htm .

 

[MHK]

But Michael actually does make a valid point:

Ken I usually do make valid points, they just usually go over your head ;-) VBG

And this whole system means we have to rely on you, the diver, to be honest about what you do with the tank. So perhaps you can understand when those of us who fill these things get a little nervous when we routinely see posted comments from divers bragging about how they "fool" us with unlabelled tanks thgat actually have nitrox to get an air fill, or using labelled tanks and swapping between both air and nitrox.

Ken, herein lies the inherent flaw in the system, which is why it's an ill-informed position. Any system that has this large of a gap built into the system will only fail, so anyone relying on such a system should expect at some point to fail. Rather then accepting a failed system, why not work to change the system?? Education and information are the keys, but the knowledge and the education need to have substance behind it, not ad hoc band-aids that rely on silly stickers and antiquated ideas.

This is typical dive industry drivel. When you ask about the substance of a Nitrox class, most people will tell you it's a few math problems with no need to dive or even no need to meet with an instructor, etc. etc. etc. Wouldn't it make sense then to spend the time in such a class to properly educate divers, rather then put out ideas like green and yellow stickers and nitrox cleaning??

Later

 

[Ken Kurtis]

This is typical dive industry drivel.

No, it's not. You conveniently ignore the federally-mandated standards that we (shops/fill stations) are held to and required to follow. You want to change all that? Go to the feds and get new regulations put in the place, the same way Dixie Divers did for the nitrox OSHA exemption. But you should stop blaming the shopsd and trying to make it sound like dive shops make this stuff up out of whole cloth. We don't and you know it.

 

[MHK]

No, it's not. You conveniently ignore the federally-mandated standards that we (shops/fill stations) are held to and required to follow. You want to change all that? Go to the feds and get new regulations put in the place, the same way Dixie Divers did for the nitrox OSHA exemption. But you should stop blaming the shopsd and trying to make it sound like dive shops make this stuff up out of whole cloth. We don't and you know it.

Ken,

Ironically enough I was almost in agreement with you, until your response. I'm well aware of the mandates, which is exactly why I said in my first post that I don't hold it against him for not filling the Nitrox tank. However, if I were in the business, and the system was as broken as it were, then I would work to change it, not accept it for what it is. As you know, since you wrote in, in opposition to the Dixie Diver OSHA exemption the government is woefully inadequate to regulate much, but there is also hope since Dixie Divers were in fact successful. If I owned a dive shop, and if I made my money off of filing tanks then I would take the time to investigate how to change the policy, but since I blend my tanks in my garage it's beyond the scope of my involvement.

Later

 

[JustAnotherDiveBum]

MHK,

as regaurds to the sticker issue you are right that you can buy the marking bands and slap them on any old tank you wish. However, the purpose for the bands are not to signify or present the illusion that the tank is "nitrox clean". Rather to insure that a nitrox tank wont be mistaken for a regular air cylindar (far more than nothing since this may prevent fatal mistakes). It is the NITROX VIP sticker that signifies "nitrox clean", and NO you can't just buy those at your' local dive shop (unless you hold a visual inspecters rating for nitrox tanks). This is what is checked or should be checked when a shop fills the tank. I can already answer the next point that will be brought up having said this, "So then why not fill a banded tank if it dosent necisarrily mean "nitrox clean"? It is much like the #1 rule in diving "always breath and never hold your breath", well if you are at depth and stay at a constant depth there is no lung overexpansion issue. This is true, but we must all agree there is no point (except for photographers who somtimes "pause" to not have bubbles in there shot) and why even tempt fate with our lives. So keep it simple, as rule allways breath and never hold your breath. If you have banded the tank you have dedicated that cylindar to be used with nitrox period, that was your choice when you bought the sticker and slaped it on there. If you wont be diving nitrox all the time then you should also own a regular tank, or, drop the whole sum of $10 to rent a tank, when the air fill itself will cost $5 this is an argument over $5 which exponentialy increases liability........ The content and analysis is the key, and again we don't fill nitrox, so we can't reasonably insure either, since we don't use analyzers, fill logs, and all of the things in place to insure the blend. This view is supported by the "authorities" in the industry. I am a TDI instructor as well as PADI and while being more liberal on views of nitrox TDI holds the same position on fills. As does N.O.A.A. and R.S.T.C. which publishes minimum training standards for a majority of the globaly recognized agencies. Do we really need federal regulations or the formation of a SCBA Police squad to insure divers are responable enough to follow thier training. I think we have beaten the nitrox issue to death, perhaps more intensive training standards should be in place, I don't know? I do know Nitrox is very safe and can inhance ones dive quite a bit, but lets use common sense with it!

Scuba Jerm,

Once again thank you for for the positive posts! The stir is great though! There are good points being made by all. I love a debate (as long as I feel I know somthing about the topic ((not to imply I know it all because I surely don't, if my views are proven inacurrate then thats great I have learnd somthing new))). It was great diving with you and I would be more than happy to take your' family diving!!!!

 

[MHK]

MHK,

as regaurds to the sticker issue you are right that you can buy the marking bands and slap them on any old tank you wish. However, the purpose for the bands are not to signify or present the illusion that the tank is "nitrox clean". Rather to insure that a nitrox tank wont be mistaken for a regular air cylindar (far more than nothing since this may prevent fatal mistakes).

While I believe reasonable minds can disagree on this point, I believe the Nitrox sticker has worked it's way into the diving lexicon as a result of a multiplicity of reasons. I would agree that early on when Nitrox was first integrating itself into the recreational world that ideas like green tanks, or Nitrox banners were instituted to prevent a tank from being mistaken. I would agrue ferociously that anyone that dives a tank without analysis has more to worry about then the stickers, or lack thereof. Also, the banners were clearly used in the early days as a marketing ploy to sell more classes, to sell more gear and to bring attention to this "new" gas. I remember clearly the first group to get nitrox certified out here, back around '94 or '95 and they wore their Nitrox stickers as if it were holding out an MBA from Harvard..

Regards,

 

[Desert_Diver]

Thanks to dr. bill for letting me know I got some positve feedback on the board, and Thanks to Scuba Jerm for the akolades. (Jeff the guide from CDS), I am saddend to hear of the overall impression our shop is making with many of you. While I can't defend poor customer service (and I wont even try) I can appoligise for it. )

Jeff-

Just so you know the whole world doesn't hate you, I enjoyed both the dive park experience and the two tank dives I did off your boat. The only thing I objected to was the air temperature (I was assured by some Californicators that it was always 70 degrees year round- for the uninitiated Catalina can have 40 degree days in December).

Thanks for the experience.

Art

 

[MHK]

Guys,

I think it's important to understand a few key points here with respect to the Nitrox issue being discussed, and just FTR, my comments are aimed at the dive industry, not necessarily the shop(s) on Catalina Island, lest they have no need to feel singled out.

The idea that a green and yellow banner indicates a dedicated Nitrox tank is silly in the extreme, and to the extent, as has been suggested in this thread, that anyone relies on that such a banner as evidence of "02" cleaning, is in for quite a surprise. The banner only serves to acknowledge the fact that as one specific point in time, that tank may have been 02 cleaned. Once you get beyond the intent of the banner, from a pure filling perspective, the fill person has absolutely no guarantee that the tank is 02 clean. Therefore, once you accept that the sticker accomplishes nothing, from a fill perspective, then to continue down the path of "requiring" Nitrox banners, and the like, are wasted energy. Moreover, it is so commonplace to have a non-dedicated tank getting filled with both Nitrox and air. In fact, it's routine. More specifically, I used my "Trimix" tank last week at the very fill station at Casino Point and had them top it off with air. For the reasons stated above is why you see me suggested that the policy, such as the term is used, is ill-informed, because once you pull back the curtain and take a look at the details, it solves very little, if anything at all..

Regards