Catalina U/W park dive report.

[MHK]

While I can't defend poor customer service (and I wont even try) I can appoligise for it.
When you're filling upwards of four to eighthundred tanks a day, renting many full gearpacks/snorkel sets, running about fifty different tabs at the same time, and trying to put order to the general chaos that is our dive park, patience can wear thin.

Jeff, as a frequent diver at the park I thank you for the opportunity to open a dialogue, because, as you say, poor customer service is indefensible. I think many of us realize that the only real "rush" you get at the fill station is on the weekends, and then again, mostly during the summer months, because if you really are filling 800 tanks a day @ $5.00 per, that's $4,000 per day, and I doubt any of your fellow dive shop owners would be too sympathetic to a fill station raking up that kind of dough. Naturally we all realize that you aren't raking in that kind of dough, so to suggest that the tennagers you have running the fill station are stressed out from pumping up to 800 tanks a day, is slightly disengenuous. Frankly, at $4K per day, then perhaps added help might be in order.

But frankly that aside, it has become very apparent to me that from the time we set foot on the Catalina Express, almost throughout the entire weekend, Catalina has become increasingly more hostile and less welcoming of weekend divers. Perhaps with the added revenue from the cruise ships our off-season prescence is less important, and the related revenue less critical.

We attempt to be a respectable Dive Shop, out of saftey, ours and yours, we will not over fill a tank. especially if you tell us you allways overfill it but its O.K. because you disabled the burstdisk by cutting a dime to fit in there. Yes I have heard this many times.

While I'm sure divers ask for overfills all the time, I doubt many divers that have a clue hold this policy against you.

Daily we are faced with the nitrox tank debate. For our safty and yours our policy of not filling nitrox tanks has not changed in the 20 years or however long we have filled out there. youre saftey and our liabillity hangs in the ballence, this is a no win argument that is had almost every day out there.

I respect that you have a policy in this regard, although I believe it to be a woefully ill-informed policy, I don't take issue with you for not being willing to fill a Nitrox labeled tank. I wish on the other hand you would get a membrane, or bank some Nitrox but that is a matter for a seperate thread.

So you have a situation where you are trying to fill tanks of multable working pressures (having to pay strict attention to gauges) you are being yelled at because you wont fill a nitrox marked tank, people are agitated because it took over an hour for there tank to get filled so they are grabbing them and not remembering that they need to check with you before they just walk away and steel the air fill or assume that out of the hundreds of divers, you recognize them and just saying "one for me" is enough to diferentiate thier tab from the 50 others. on top of that somone will inevitably walk up still wearing all the gear and try to return it. never thinking it may take a tenth of the time to return the gear if they have taken it off and broken it down first. This is usually when students come up for tanks when they don't know thier instructors name or what tab we are suposed to bill it to and we are supposed to hand out gear to uncertified divers because they in a class but they don't know with who. If all of this has ganged up on you for any length of time there is going to be a loud noise as the burstdisk of a lowpressure tank lets go since you have not been able to really watch the gauges close enough.

With all due respect, and I mean that honestly, that is the business you choose to be in. You have a short window [ ie; weekends] to capitalize on your investment, and I doubt anyone seriously begrudges you for wanting to make money. I think most of us are frustrated with the attitudes of the teenagers you have running the fill station on the weekends. If the "burn-out" factor is so high, or the pressure too great [ no pun intended], then perhaps rotating the staff or hiring additional staff is warranted. But, essentially, they have the attitude that they know fully that they are the only game available at the Point, so they'll get to you when they feel like it. As you say, there may very well be other ancilliary factors to consider, but in a customer service business, we resent the attitude.

WOW, I guess I vented a bit there, not meant to be an excuse for, or to defend poor service, that is our bad! I do wish on both sides things could be a little more relaxed/flexable because diving is suposed to be fun! thats why we do it!!

I guess I vented a bit as well, but many of us have witnessed first hand the hostile attitude from the Catalina Express crew, and then the issue is increased when the fill guys act as if they are doing you a favor by filling your tank.

Regards

 

[drbill]

MHK- Jeff is not the owner of CDS but an employee (as I'm sure he will correct himself). As such he has little to no control over the policies, prices and other factors established by the actual owner of the business. He simply has to abide by those policies as he works there... or perhaps risk being fired.

Hiring people on Avalon with good customer serving skills is difficult. There is indeed an attitude problem that is practically genetic on the island. There have been a number of attempts to improve on this, mostly without success. One smart business person has elected to hire employees from throughout the globe. He can provide them housing and they have a much better work ethic and attitude than many of our locals.

However, there is a reason that locals on occasion resent divers. Divers, often by self admission, are not good tippers and are cheap (just look at me, I'm an icon for cheapness). I have heard of taxi drivers who have repeatedly hauled gear out to the dive park for dive groups, loaded and unloaded the gear from the taxi, and not received a single $ for their effort. Wait staff in the restaurants have frequently commented to me about how cheap some divers are. They either don't tip or leave very small tips of 5% (OK if the service doesn't warrant it of course, but the wait staff is taxed on the assumed average of 8%).

Divers often go for the Hermosa instead of the more expensive hotels. Nothing against the Hermosa, and if I were visiting the island to dive I'd probably stay there too. In fact, a friend of mine who was the Vice President of The Cousteau Society LOVED to stay at the Hermosa.

I can speak for a situation I was personally involved in. I worked the King Neptune one day because many of their staff were involved in getting their captain's license. We had a large number of divers on board and worked very hard that day. I was quite sore from toting the gear, etc. At the end of the day we had $100 in tips to share among the three of us who worked the boat. An average of $3 for each diver on board. Outrageous given the service provided. I never tip less than $10 for a full day on a dive boat and I don't have a big income (or a small one for that matter). This only reinforced the impression other service personnel in town have given... divers are cheap.

Now this may be a mutually reinforcing situation. Poor attitude by front line personnel resulting in little or no tip resulting in even poorer service. However in my case we gave good service to divers and were tipped very poorly for the effort. Think that makes me want to work another 12-hour day on a dive boat? Only to help out Bob & Tina at Scuba Luv!

 

[drbill]

Jeff, as a frequent diver at the park I thank you for the opportunity to open a dialogue, because, as you say, poor customer service is indefensible. I think many of us realize that the only real "rush" you get at the fill station is on the weekends, and then again, mostly during the summer months, because if you really are filling 800 tanks a day @ $5.00 per, that's $4,000 per day, and I doubt any of your fellow dive shop owners would be too sympathetic to a fill station raking up that kind of dough. Naturally we all realize that you aren't raking in that kind of dough, so to suggest that the tennagers you have running the fill station are stressed out from pumping up to 800 tanks a day, is slightly disengenuous. Frankly, at $4K per day, then perhaps added help might be in order.

I guess you haven't been that observant when you're at the park since there are certauinly a number of days I've seen 400 or more tanks go through the fill cycle at least twice, meaning a minimum of 800 tanks being filled.

Then there are the weekends when nobody comes out to dive and the poor fill station staff feel like te lonely Maytag repair man.

I respect that you have a policy in this regard, although I believe it to be a woefully ill-informed policy, I don't take issue with you for not being willing to fill a Nitrox labeled tank. I wish on the other hand you would get a membrane, or bank some Nitrox but that is a matter for a seperate thread.

I think several of us dive professionals out here would feel that your suggestion is woefully ill-informed regarding filling Nitrox tanks with air.

I have heard talk that land-based fill stations in San Diego County are not allowed to fill nitrox tanks period (anyone from there please correct me if this information is wrong), only boat-based. The reason given is that they don't risk endangering the lives of those innocent passers-by who are not involved in diving period. I've also heard talk that there are several talking about instituting the same restriction in Los Angeles County. Why would John Mello (the actual owner of CDS) want to invest his money in something that may have to be discontinued in the future. Nitrox fills are available at Scuba Luv.

As you say, there may very well be other ancilliary factors to consider, but in a customer service business, we resent the attitude.

While you raise some good points here, I think your post reflects some of the same attitude I sensed and complained about two years ago when divers in one of your DIR classes violated the rules of the dive park and you at first denied it and then tried to "apologize" (perhaps rationalize is a better word) for what several of us, including the instructor whose class your divers barreled over as they were trying to get out on the proper side of the steps, witnessed.

I for one do hope the valid complaints you and others have raised about the attitude of service personnel here are remedied. It will be important if we are to establish our competitiveness in the destination market. I also hope that the issues I raised in my previous post will be taken to heart by divers who visit not only Catalina, but other dive destinations.

 

[Jim Ernst]

Thanks to dr. bill for letting me know I got some positve feedback on the board, and Thanks to Scuba Jerm for the akolades. (Jeff the guide from CDS), I am saddend to hear of the overall impression our shop is making with many of you. While I can't defend poor customer service (and I wont even try) I can appoligise for it.
On the thought of silly questions you have to understand that we hear them all, all the time. Working the airfill station can be a VERY stessfull job! The attitude is uncalledfor and unprofessional, but it comes from a very real place. (I've never copped an attitude ofcourse but I am a very patient man! ((and I dont work out there very often, usually diving ))) :14: When you're filling upwards of four to eighthundred tanks a day, renting many full gearpacks/snorkel sets, running about fifty different tabs at the same time, and trying to put order to the general chaos that is our dive park, patience can wear thin. Especially when the same issues keep coming up. We are constantly pressured with the ? when will our tanks be done, a compressor can only fill so fast, and let me tell you that our compressor is a monster. There is no need to stand and make a croud to watch tanks fill, a watched pot will never boil. We are constantly told how to do our job as well, we do look at your tanks V.I.P., hydro, and working pressure so there is no need to tell us it is a high pressure or to "pump it up" because you are planning a "deep" dive. We attempt to be a respectable Dive Shop, out of saftey, ours and yours, we will not over fill a tank. especially if you tell us you allways overfill it but its O.K. because you disabled the burstdisk by cutting a dime to fit in there. Yes I have heard this many times. Daily we are faced with the nitrox tank debate. For our safty and yours our policy of not filling nitrox tanks has not changed in the 20 years or however long we have filled out there. youre saftey and our liabillity hangs in the ballence, this is a no win argument that is had almost every day out there. So you have a situation where you are trying to fill tanks of multable working pressures (having to pay strict attention to gauges) you are being yelled at because you wont fill a nitrox marked tank, people are agitated because it took over an hour for there tank to get filled so they are grabbing them and not remembering that they need to check with you before they just walk away and steel the air fill or assume that out of the hundreds of divers, you recognize them and just saying "one for me" is enough to diferentiate thier tab from the 50 others. on top of that somone will inevitably walk up still wearing all the gear and try to return it. never thinking it may take a tenth of the time to return the gear if they have taken it off and broken it down first. This is usually when students come up for tanks when they don't know thier instructors name or what tab we are suposed to bill it to and we are supposed to hand out gear to uncertified divers because they in a class but they don't know with who. If all of this has ganged up on you for any length of time there is going to be a loud noise as the burstdisk of a lowpressure tank lets go since you have not been able to really watch the gauges close enough.
WOW, I guess I vented a bit there, not meant to be an excuse for, or to defend poor service, that is our bad! I do wish on both sides things could be a little more relaxed/flexable because diving is suposed to be fun! thats why we do it!!

welcome to scuba board!!!! and i could never do your job, i DONT have the patience to deal with all of that and i would tell someone a thing or two if i was pushed like that, so keep up the good work on your end, and good diving to you!!!

 

[JustAnotherDiveBum]

Thank you headhunter!

and to evryone for not quoting a million instances when you were treated poorly out there (I know it happens, I was afraid of being bombarded). As for the nitrox issue, it is really threefold, first and really the main reason for the policy is liabillity! Anybody who has worked in this industry can tell you that liabillity issues with diving are huge. If an accedent does occur (which it has and will again) evryone gets sued right down to the original certifying instructor and any shop or person that had anything to do with making the dive in question happen. we were named in a suit less than a year ago because we filled a compressed air tank with compressed air for a certified diver who sufferd a fatal accedent on an independant night dive (not in the park). ofcourse the contents of the tank were analized and found to be 21% or regular air with no trace contaminents. We held no neglagence and had no problem being dismissed from the suit. If the contents of the tank were found to be ANYTHING other than 21% it would not have been so easy. Since we don't fill nitrox we don't follow nitrox guidlines eg. checking enriched air c-cards, use of a fill log, providing analizing equiptment, and having the diver verify and sign the blend/MOD in the log and on the tank. If a tank leaves our posession as "full" with ANYTHING other than 21% we are neglagent for that airfill and who is to say that the increased O2 level had absolutely nothing to do with the incident or the divers reactions to a given situation which led to the accident (we all know how laweyrs can be). Next up our whips at the fillstation do not have back pressure valves on them which means that the pressures of all five tanks hooked up in the bucket equlize with each other, this will change (even just slightly) all of the five tanks O2 content, now we are five times more likely to have a problem. Finally what about the tank? By hooking it up to a non O2 clean compressor the tank is no longer O2 clean. Trace contamenents are now possably introduced such as microscopic lubricant particles which are patrolium based and there for combustable in a "high pressure" pure O2 environment, as is the case in partial pressure blending. Not an issue when it is filled with air or from a membrain system, but because it is a cheaper way to make nitrox there are quite a few partial pressure systems out there, and there is nothing wrong with partial pressure blending, it is one of the main reasons why we use dedicated cylinders that are O2 clean. If we fill your labled Nitrox tank we may contaminate it with our non O2 clean compressor but all the markings remain saying the tank is O2 clean. the next shop you go to for a nitrox fill that has a partial pressure system will fill the marked tank not knowing it is no longer O2 clean and BOOM the risk for fire/explosion is no longer within federal standards. Now I know there is a lot of conservitism in all of this and in the real world you could probably get away with it a thousand times in a row without incident but it only takes one. This is why we have standards and regulations... AND our policy. As far as it being coverd in the class, well, it is. I just happend to finish teaching a nitrox class this afternoon and can say definitively it is in there. For those that disagree look at Knowlege Review section 1 (for the PADI course) #5 #6 #7, as well on the final exam we made you take, questions 5-9 hit on all of this, especially #9 which states EXACTLY What should you do if an enriched air cylinder or oxygen serviced equipment is accidentally used with compressed air? If you are nitrox certified and can't answer this maybe take a look at your manual again and refresh, theres alot of good stuff in there you may have forgoten.

 

[kelpmermaid]

in the past year, I have made more trips to Avalon than usual, and have had the following surprisingly positive consumer experiences:

- shockingly, a Catalina Express captain actually carried my tank to the boat;
- when my baggage took a detour on its way back to the mole from the Casino, one of the baggage guys actually made a trip into town to retrieve it so that I was able to make my boat home; and
- CDS at the Casino actually lent me an inflator hose --- no charge.

Now, I am far from super-model material, so it's not that. Could it be that being a woman "of a certain age" has an occasional advantage in this town after all? I doubt it.

Every business has its good days and bad, and being in a remote small town is going to magnify both extremes. When things go wrong, the level of support just isn't deep enough to cover the shortfall. I certainly have not detected any hostility -- maybe a little "island time" thinking, but not hostility.

 

[JustAnotherDiveBum]

Thank You Dr. Bill!!!!!!

It would have taken me a while to address all those issues!! If I came across as an owner or manager to any of you I apologise, I am mearly a lowly instructor who has to work with whats there. More staff is a possability but that creates more confussion, there is not alot of working space out there and we all know the saying too many chefs...... as for the $ issue yes we can make a killing out there but look how expensive evrything in Avalon is if you think it is cheap to pay the rent on a historic landmark site in avalon guess again. then the cost of the biggest compressor on the market with maintinence since it runs somtimes 13 hours a day ect. ect. there is a bit of overhead involved in selling air. not to say the shop doesn't do well out there. it is just a complicated situation. As an instructor I hate working the trailer and rarely do it if at all, it only pays just over minimum wage plus tips (which we know....) this is why local highschool kids end up in the position, housing is a huge issue if we hire people from from off the island. The express boats are being more difficult on divers and I can't explain why. I have no part of there buisness, but they inturn hurt mine by giving this impression. I make my living by divers, not cruise ships! regaurdless of time of year!

 

[drbill]

No problem Jeff. Know what you guys go through. And I know the poor customer service of some. Both dive shops on the island have some great staff. Although I work closely with Scuba Luv, I think the folks at CDS are good people and divers as well.

Of course most visitors think living on the island is idyllic. No question that it is an awesome place to live... I've enjoyed it here for 36 years myself. However, given the low wages... if you have to work 2-3 jobs to afford the rents and cost of living here, and are constantly kept awake by visitors partying late into the night in our residential areas, many are indeed stressed during the peak summer season.

 

[Scuba Jerm]

Wow, didn't know I'd cause quite a stir! I must say I have learned a lot reading through these posts. Thank you Jeff and Dr. Bill for your perspective, I think it helps us who visit become more respectful and not quite and ignorant to what you have to go through. I'd be telling a lie if I said I understood what that's like... don't think I will ever fully understand because I don't work with tourists everyday, but I now have a better prespective. Jeff explained to me what the summers are like when he gave us the tour and I could see how that would be crazy..... hats off to you for dealing with that.

Jeff, I also wanted to say again how grateful my wife and I were to have you as our guide for park. My whole family dives and I have told them all to look you up when they come out your way. As for my comments regarding CDS. I didn't mean to imply that they are terrible, it was just the little attitude that came across was unexpected is all..... no real big deal, just surprising. And I agree with kelpmermaid every business has it's good and bad days, perhaps I caught them on a bad day?

Anyway, thanks for all the response, and thanks again to Jeff and Dr.bill for their comments; (very insightful). I look forward to coming out again.

 

[MHK]

I guess you haven't been that observant when you're at the park since there are certauinly a number of days I've seen 400 or more tanks go through the fill cycle at least twice, meaning a minimum of 800 tanks being filled.

Then there are the weekends when nobody comes out to dive and the poor fill station staff feel like te lonely Maytag repair man.

Bill,

If the norm is 800 tanks, that's about $4k a day, which would warrant added help to help reduce the stress on the staff. If it isn't the norm, then offering that they are too stressed, and are therefore providing poor customer service, as a result of 800 tanks per day is simply disineguous. I think ultimately it has been said that it's a minimium wage job, on a island so getting help is difficult. Since it's stipulated that these are likely teenage kids working for minimum wage, those of us that are suggesting a lack of customer service are probably on the right side of the issue.

I think several of us dive professionals out here would feel that your suggestion is woefully ill-informed regarding filling Nitrox tanks with air.

I have heard talk that land-based fill stations in San Diego County are not allowed to fill nitrox tanks period (anyone from there please correct me if this information is wrong), only boat-based.

I've also heard talk that there are several talking about instituting the same restriction in Los Angeles County. Why would John Mello (the actual owner of CDS) want to invest his money in something that may have to be discontinued in the future. Nitrox fills are available at Scuba Luv.

Bill, you are incorrect on several counts. After the incident about 5 years ago with John Cain in San Diego, there was an over reaction on behalf of law enforcement and they did cancel Nitrox for a few weeks, at best.. There are many shops currently pumping Nitrox in San Diego. Moreover, where in the world did you hear that L.A. County was considering a Nitrox ban??? The only person/shop I'm aware of that has an anti-Nitrox stance is Ken Kurtis at Reef Seekers, and most in the industry have long ago dismissed his views.

Secondly, with respect to an ill-informed Nitrox position you need to re-read my comments. As I said, I respect that he has such a policy, I just think it's an ill-informed policy.

The dive industry has promulgated one of the largest efforts at missing the larger picture in favor of silly marketing ideas with this issue. The idea that a shop won't fill a tank that has a nitrox sticker on it with regular old air is so beyond the scope of what is important as to be laughable. This idea is bedded in the notion that the green and yellow nitrox banner on the tank insures somehow or another that such a tank is "Nitrox cleaned".. It does no such thing, but it provides false assurances to both the fill person and the shop owner that it might. The fact of the matter is the silly green and yellow Nitrox banners do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. You can buy those silly banners at almost any shop and slap them on a tank and waalah, you have yourself a tank that most would believe is "Nitrox clean", and thus available to get a Nitrox fill. Conversely, the false assurance works the other way as well. You go through the motions of getting the tank "Nitrox clean" and slap all the silly stickers you want on it, and then go to any boat that is happy to fill it with air. Once that happens your tank is no longer "Nitrox clean", but yet if the next week you wanted to get a Nitrox fill and brought it too a shop you would have the fill person believing that the tank is OK to fill with Nitrox ..

Accordingly, the stickers and the fill have little correlation. The content and the analysis is the key, not the yellow and green stickers.

BTW, I'm not picking on the shop(s) at Catalina with respect to the Nitrox issue, it's a much broader industry problem, but since it came up in the thread I thought I'd point it out.

Regards,