Catalina U/W park dive report.

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drbill:
Sigh, I just solve the problem by not diving Nitrox at all, although I do plan to get Nitrox certified in the future for greater understanding. I occasionally dive 5-6 "cool" water dives in a day and am invigorated rather than drained.

If someone has not affixed the appropriate warning sticker to their tank so they can bypass a fill station's policies then this is a deceptive practice by the tank owner. The fill station can't be (er, shouldn't be) held responsible.

I think I'm understanding the point MHK raised about the stickers. However, it does seem to be like saying that we shouldn't have posted speed limits on our highways because few people observe them (especially here in SoCal). The system only fails because people are dishonest (or ignorant).

Bill,

I honestly have no interest in arguing with you, but the point I am trying to raise is that the dive industry has set up a system that lacks education and replaces it with silly stickers as the mechanism to deal with it. I'd prefer that they spend the time to educate divers and not set up systems that have such giant loopholes in them, so as to render the entire system useless. Whether the diver takes the sticker off, or not isn't the point. The point is that there are many ways to fill Nitrox tanks, Partial pressure, contniuous blending and/or a membrane system. Quite frankly, the only potential for a problem comes from partial pressure blending, to the etxent you have a membrane or a continuos blending system the content sticker becomes the key, not the dumb stickers that advertise Nitrox in yellow and green, Once you put in place a system that relies on such a sticker, the general rule becomes for fill stations, a Nitrox sticker = nitrox and no sticker means no nitrox, and that is silly. If the divers and the fill station are educated you loose the need for reliance on a system that is ripe for exploitation. This is just another example of the dive industry doing a poor job educating and substituting training for the easy way out, that is my frustration.

As for diving Nitrox, from what I understand of your diving, albiet I haven't spent too much time considering your diving, but from what I've read it seems to me that Nitrox will benefit you greatly. I understand you do multiple dives daily in the recreational ranges, and tend to spend quite a bit of time underwater, Nitrox is perfect for you..

We could discuss all day long the under and over 40% rule, the 23.5% rule and the merits of the various stickers et. al, but the issue I try to raise is awareness. Doesn't it strike you as strange that in the cave diving part of the country, divers can pull up to pre-paid fill stations and blend their own tanks irrespective of stickers, but yet out in our part of the country, we are so far behind the times that we are still worried about green and yellow stickers?

Regards,
 
drbill:
Must admit I missed that until you posted this. I don't use cyber language or smilies because I was educated way before computers became common place! Heck, we were still using slide rules when I was in school! Must admit that does change the equation a bit and I'll apologize for not catching it initially. I don't know what the VBG means though and would welcome clarification.

;-) is a wink-wink and a smile

VBG = Very Big Grin
 
ok, gentlemen... let's try to move along here... nothing to see...

Dr.Bill: your concerns are appreciated. perhaps a PM might have been a better
way to address them.

All: please remember, our TOS does not allow for personal attacks on anyone, even
if you feel justified in doing so. Please report the post and we'll take care of it.

now... let's try to get back to our scheduled program

eyebrow
 
drbill:
I think I'm understanding the point MHK raised about the stickers. However, it does seem to be like saying that we shouldn't have posted speed limits on our highways because few people observe them (especially here in SoCal). The system only fails because people are dishonest (or ignorant).

Bill,

Not to beat a dead horse, but to continue with your line of thinking, I disagree and will use your analogy to demonstrate my point. Sure the speed limit is set, but most reasonable people realize that if you go a mile or two over the spped limit not much will happen, except maybe a ticket. In essence, most realize the government sets arbitrary limits and then breaks chops when you exceed them.

Now juxtapose that against the Nitrox arena, depending on who you listen too, a limit is being set at either 23.5% or 40%, but herein most uneducated people [ and I don't mean that condescendingly] but most who don't know the issue are way too willing to accept these "limits" as absolute, and yet even more are all too willing at accept this as gospel. Does anyone with knowledge in the subject matter seriously believe that you are in jeopardy if you blend a tank to 23.6%?? The idea is absurd, but yet you see people jumping on this bandwagon, or citing it as a defense for an indefensible position. Education is they key and if you couple this with common sense we may get somewhere. No one in their right mind thinks that if you drive at 66 MPH that it is the end of the world and everyone is willing to acknowledge the absurdity of such an arbitrary limit. The same holds true for 23.5%, if you blend a tank without a green and yellow sticker to 24% I doubt the world will come to an end, but some of the fill stations know no better and have adopted these ad hoc, arbitrary "limits" as gospel.

Hope that helps.
 
Since there has been a reference to the Luxfer position as a CYA, I thought I would pull it up and post it below. From my reading of it, Luxfer's, and now apparently PSI's, position is not that unreasonable. Some people on this board may claim it is too conservative and that the uneducated are too willing to accept these standards, but that is just their opinion. I am not aware that any of the participants in this thread are actual experts in the field. Do any of you serve on any of the agencies or trade associations that set the standards? Are your opinions sought out by anyone in the compressed gas industry?

MHK has made the comment that the percentages chosen are arbitrary and that 23.6%could not possibly be put you in danger. Maybe, maybe not, but why the need to push the limits? The leap in logic that since the standards are arbitrary they should in effect be ignored is amazing. Most standards outside of certain scientific laws are to some degree arbitrary. You have to pick some number or you have no standard. If everyone is then free to interpret the standard as they see fit, you no longer have a standard. If you don't like 23.5%, why settle on 40%? How could 41% be a problem? If 66 MPH is okay, why not 76?

To the extent that a dive shop has chosen a standard 23.5% or 40%, or refuses to put air in a tank with a Nitrox sticker their customers ought to abide by the rules or go elsewhere. Deceiving a shop because you think they are too conservative, or everyone else is doing it, or whatever justification you want to attach to it is just plain wrong. Yes there are better, more expensive, more time consuming and intrusive ways of dealing with the issue and that is generally what you get when people flaunt a voluntary system. No more fills without a tank analysis. No nitrox, trimix, etc. pumped into anything but (you take your pick) shop tanks or commercial/military tanks. Play games with the shops and (again take your pick) get banned, have your tank confiscated, have your agency pull your C card or all of the above. Yep, following those simple rules about the stickers and respecting the rules of the individual dive shops was such a joke.

Excerpt from Luxfer position:


"The 40% threshold is cited in a single Federal CFR published by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) of the U.S. Department of Labor: 29CFR910.430, which applies to “Commercial Diving Operations” and states in the section titled “Oxygen safety” on page 854: “(1) Equipment used with oxygen or mixtures containing over forty percent (40%) by volume oxygen shall be designed for oxygen service. (2) Components (except umbilicals) exposed to oxygen or mixtures containing over forty percent (40%) by volume oxygen shall be cleaned of flammable materials before use.”
Please note that OSHA also provides a very specific definition about who should—and should not—be considered a “commercial diver” to whom the 40% threshold applies: “Commercial diver means a diver engaged in underwater work for hire excluding sport and recreational diving and the instruction thereof” (46CFR197, page 409; italics added for emphasis).
Even though OSHA clearly excludes sport and recreational divers from the CFR that specifies a 40% threshold, some professionals in the recreational diving industry have nonetheless been citing the OSHA “rule” for many years and maintaining that special cleaning of recreational diving equipment is not necessary with oxygen concentrations of 40% or less. These advocates of the “40% rule” have often stated that the U.S. Navy supports their position, which at one time was true—but no more. In the current applicable military specification (Mil-Std-1330D), the Navy specifies a 25% threshold for oxygen cleaning. Compounding the confusion is the fact that two other OSHA documents, 29CFR1910.146 and 29CFR1910.134, specify an oxygen threshold of 23.5%.
For the sake of clarity, here’s a summary of the oxygen threshold percentages at which various key U.S. agencies and organizations require special cleaning of oxygen-handling equipment and systems:
Organization Oxygen threshold Reference
U.S. Navy >25% Mil-Std-1330D
U.S. Compressed Gas Association (CGA) >23.5% CGA Pamphlet 4.4
National Fire Prevention Association (NFPA) >21 – 25% NFPA standards
American Society for Testing & Materials (ASTM) >25% G126, G128, G63, G94
National Aeronautical & Space Administration (NASA) >21%/>100 psig Various KSC & JSC
Occupational Safety & Health Administration (OSHA) >23.5% 29CFR1910.146
OSHA >23.5% 29CFR1910.134
OSHA >40% 29CFR1910.430
The reasons for Luxfer’s position: Luxfer supports an oxygen-cleaning threshold of 23.5% and does not support the alleged “40% rule.” This means that when a pressurized oxygen concentration used in a Luxfer cylinder exceeds 23.5%, the cylinder must have been cleaned to the same cleanliness standard mandated for a cylinder containing 100% oxygen. Luxfer’s reasons for this position are:
• All key U.S. regulatory and gas industry references except one advocate an oxygen threshold of 21% to 25%.
• Luxfer is a member of the Compressed Gas Association and therefore supports the CGA-specified threshold of 23.5%. Furthermore, Luxfer defers to CGA on all safety matters related to oxygen handling and containment, as do OSHA and DOT.
• As an international manufacturer, Luxfer works with regulatory authorities and industry associations around the world—the overwhelming majority of which support a threshold value from 21% to 25% (for example, this is true in the United Kingdom, Australia, France, Germany and Japan).
• United Nations compressed air packaging guidelines (see UN 1002) indicate that when compressed air contains oxygen as the only oxidizing gas and the oxygen concentration exceeds 23.5%, then the entire gas mixture must be listed as an oxidizing gas.
Some within the recreational diving community contend that the supposed “40% rule” is justified by an excellent scuba safety record and should therefore be maintained—despite the fact that so many agencies and organizations have specified much lower threshold values for oxygen cleaning. Luxfer finds this “history-of-use” argument unconvincing for the following reasons:
• Compared to other industries and organizations that use pressurized oxygen, oxygen usage in the recreational diving industry has not been sufficiently widespread, nor are available oxygen-use statistics sufficiently comprehensive, to declare a successful history of use for the 40% threshold.
• Oxygen-related fires and explosions are inherently low-probability, high-consequence events—which means that they occur very infrequently, but are usually catastrophic when they do. Forensic evidence has shown that undetected, non-propagating fires happen within scuba oxygen systems more frequently than is generally known. It is possible to operate “on the edge” of a fire for years without knowing it—and to be lulled into complacency by seemingly “safe” performance.
• As use of higher oxygen concentrations at higher pressures increases in the recreational diving industry, the risk of serious accidents will also increase"
 
scjoe:
Since there has been a reference to the Luxfer position as a CYA, I thought I would pull it up and post it below. From my reading of it, Luxfer's, and now apparently PSI's, position is not that unreasonable. Some people on this board may claim it is too conservative and that the uneducated are too willing to accept these standards, but that is just their opinion. I am not aware that any of the participants in this thread are actual experts in the field. Do any of you serve on any of the agencies or trade associations that set the standards? Are your opinions sought out by anyone in the compressed gas industry?
Fair enough question. In my case, no, I don't serve in any such industry capacities. However, I've spent a fair amount of time around people who have been doing gas blending professionally for 15+ years, and thus have had an opportunity to glean some of their "real-world" ideas about what's important. For example, the blenders I know all agree that fill rate is more important than holding to exact standards of tank cleanliness -- they are not too concerned if a customer has had a couple of fills of Grade E air in their oxygen-clean tank, but they're very fastidious about keeping the fill rate slow when high O2% is being handled. Similarly, there is a lot of experience to suggest that O2 percentages under 40% are relatively safe (for example, we don't use O2-clean regulators when breathing 32% or 36%), but at 50% and higher gas mixtures react much like pure O2.

Interestingly, in Luxfer's statement they acknowledge that oxygen fires are low-probability. Can anyone point to any case ever of a fire or explosion caused by using a non-O2-clean tank for a membrane or continuous-blending fill for nitrox under 40%? If so, I'd be amazed.

scjoe:
To the extent that a dive shop has chosen a standard 23.5% or 40%, or refuses to put air in a tank with a Nitrox sticker their customers ought to abide by the rules or go elsewhere. Deceiving a shop because you think they are too conservative, or everyone else is doing it, or whatever justification you want to attach to it is just plain wrong.
Yes, I agree completely that you should be upfront about what you're doing. There's one shop in my area that does air-only fills; occasionally I'll bring in a tank with some nitrox mix (always under 40%) and ask for an air top-off. I make a point of saying, "This one has 2000 psi of 39% -- you're okay with topping that off?," and their answer is invariably "Sure, no problem." If a shop has a requirement that doesn't work for me (for example, mandating the big green and yellow sticker), I vote with my feet.
 
Frank O:
...Interestingly, in Luxfer's statement they acknowledge that oxygen fires are low-probability. Can anyone point to any case of a fire or explosion caused by using a non-O2-clean tank for a membrane or continuous-blending fill for nitrox under 40%? If so, I'd be amazed.

Do we always have to wait for a catastrophe to happen before we do something about it? Low-probability and impossibility are vastly different; I realize this is apples and oranges, but did anyone think a piece of spray on foam could punch a hole in the wing of a spaceship? Well, now we know it can. And look at the cost.

So perhaps let's err on the side of caution, and not wait till we blow up a dive shop and the strip mall it's located in, before we get too lax with our standards.
 
PhotoTJ:
Frank O:
Can anyone point to any case of a fire or explosion caused by using a non-O2-clean tank for a membrane or continuous-blending fill for nitrox under 40%? If so, I'd be amazed.
Do we always have to wait for a catastrophe to happen before we do something about it? Low-probability and impossibility are vastly different; I realize this is apples and oranges, but did anyone think a piece of spray on foam could punch a hole in the wing of a spaceship? Well, now we know it can. And look at the cost.

So perhaps let's err on the side of caution, and not wait till we blow up a dive shop and the strip mall it's located in, before we get too lax with our standards.
The difference I see in your analogy is that the space shuttle has taken off fewer times than the number of nitrox fills I've personally gotten. If the shuttle had launched as many times as the hundreds of thousands (or however many) nitrox fills that have ever been done, you would expect to see a design flaw like the foam issue crop up statistically. That's what I meant about learning from the experience of the long-time blenders I know who have filled a lot of tanks. I'll stand by my challenge -- can anyone cite a case of a non-O2-clean tank (but otherwise in vis and hydro) causing any problem (serious or not) with a membrane or continuous-blending fill of nitrox under 40%?
 
PhotoTJ:
I realize this is apples and oranges, but did anyone think a piece of spray on foam could punch a hole in the wing of a spaceship?


Actually, yes. The engineers that worked on it knew that the foam was a problem. They said so constantly. It was management that set their concerns aside.

[/HIJACK]
 
yeah... all it takes is for any debris to dislodge a tile just a weeeee bit in the wrong place, and under stress (i.e. re-entry) that weak point will mess you up bad

as we know happened
 

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