Casino Point - Avalon, Diver Death 9/5/11

[DandyDon]

Discovering someone in need and assisting is one thing. Offering to accompany them in what's deemed an extreme sport opens new doors. Just don't hold yourself out to be an expert or a pro, or if you are a pro - be sure you are covered. I'd still like to encourage the hiring of DMs.

 

[Ayisha]

...we can confirm the 32 pounds that she wore because we heard her buddy say it more than once."32 pounds, she always wears 32 pounds"....

Both divers were using rented S80s from CDS.

If it's correct that the victim was wearing 32 lbs with a steel 80, that sounds extremely overweighted. I rented a steel 80 on Catalina Island and I wore 10 lbs with a 2 piece 7 mm wetsuit, hood, gloves, socks and boots. I'm not sure what the victim was wearing or what would be correct for her, but 32 lbs sounds like a lot.

If she was extremely overweighted, that would take a lot of work, air and kicking to try to maintain her position in the water column. The work to maintain position would be even more pronounced at depth and harder to control.

 

[keithbt]

If it's correct that the victim was wearing 32 lbs with a steel 80, that sounds extremely overweighted. I rented a steel 80 on Catalina Island and I wore 10 lbs with a 2 piece 7 mm wetsuit, hood, gloves, socks and boots. I'm not sure what the victim was wearing or what would be correct for her, but 32 lbs sounds like a lot.

If she was extremely overweighted, that would take a lot of work, air and kicking to try to maintain her position in the water column. The work to maintain position would be even more pronounced at depth and harder to control.

I thought the same thing. 32lbs was too much weight for her size...

 

[ktomlinson]

Iztok, what insurance do you have? I'm not a DM yet, but am working towards it at the moment, and was under the impression that the agencies insurance would cover me when guiding dives or working within my certification. I am going t through NAUI if that matters for this question.

I had a long drive today and was thinking about this accident, and the dual fatality accident that happened in South Florida a few weeks ago. Why isn't a proper weight check a main part of OW courses? Maybe this accident, and the S. Fl. accident will encourage more instructors to emphasize that divers should be familiar with their buddies gear and how to operate it in case of emergency. (I do not mean this as a criticism of this divers buddy, or the two in S. Fl. I am sure that they were under a tremendous amount of stress, coupled with inexperience, which would be a horrible situation to be in.)

 

[Athos]

All right here is how the things with the certifications are - OW - 60, - AOW- 90, Deep diver specialty 130 .If Any one is diving on the 6 dive 100 feet's of SW it is against the training that have been received and is nothing to do with the OW certification .My condolences to the family but this is like getting a permit license and going to a race.The problem in general by my opinion (and from what I can see is not only my ) That OW is not enough to start diving I believe that to start diving OW and AOW must be combine as a one certification and no one with less then 12 supervised dives should have a scuba divers license .But again sorry to here about the accident .I wood not be posting here if I have not seen something very similar with a happy ending thanks god that happened recently on the east coast.

 

[Dodger23]

Athos is correct, and it has been stated many times in other posts, and previously in this post. There is a problem with the course curriculum and/or the certification level. Either the curriculum needs to involve much more training requirements, or the certification can't allow so much freedom to the new diver. The OW Cert should be equal to a learners permit for a car. The diver is allowed to dive with a DM or higher only. Once they complete the AOW course, then they can dive without experienced supervision.

However, both certifications still need to focus more on dropping weights, and DANGER of holding your breath. Both topics are covered, but obviously not well enough since both still seem to be a major factor in cause of death. In order to pass the AOW course, the diver should be able to demonstrate how to predictively manage their gas as well. I think Ken stated earlier about ending a dive with 500psi, and how that needs to be clearly understood that you are ON THE BOAT/SUFACE WITH 500psi, not starting to ascend with 500psi (VERY GOOD POINT, and I also liked his Rule of Depth vs. Air).

Lastly, their should be more power of discretion given to the instructor on passing a student based on attitude of student, and demonstration quality of the skills. Sometimes it is clear a student has absolutely no respect for the dangers of scuba diving, and thinks they can do any dive after completing their OW certification.

(This discussion should probably turn into it's own thread)

 

[Dodger23]

Iztok, what insurance do you have? I'm not a DM yet, but am working towards it at the moment, and was under the impression that the agencies insurance would cover me when guiding dives or working within my certification. I am going t through NAUI if that matters for this question.

Agencies insurance will not cover you unless you have a policy with them. You can get a policy through the shop/dive boat you work for at a discounted rate, but it typically only covers while working for that shop/dive boat. You can also get you own policy (which I did), but it cost around 3 times as much, but it covers you everywhere you dive.

They should cover the insurance options in your Divemaster course. If not, I would strongly recommend you speaking with your LDS & Insurance company to get the facts. This is not an area where you want to make assumptions.

 

[lamont]

I've always advised a depth times 10 rule: Take your depth, multiply by 10, and that's your minimum gas to start ascending. So at 100 feet, when you hit 1000psi, you start up. Arrive at your 15' safety stop with 750psi, hit the surface with 500psi, and you've given yourself some margin of error.

depth times 10 plus 300 psi is probably better for newer recreational divers in al80s.

and when i first started going to 100 feet using al80s (which i actually wouldn't suggest doing around here) i used turn pressures of 1600-1800 psi at 100 feet.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

I'm not a DM yet, but am working towards it at the moment, and was under the impression that the agencies insurance would cover me when guiding dives or working within my certification.

Without meaning to hijack the thread, let me see if I can clear up the insurance question for you.

Once you become certified as a DM (regardless of agency), you are required to be insured to actually work as a DM. But there are essentially two insurance options.

Option 1, and the most common, is that you personally buy an insurance policy, usually through your training agency's preferred insurer (but it's not necessarily required to be them) which will then cover you for any DMing activities you do that meet the standards of your training agency and the warranties and restrictions of the policy.

The second type is when the facility you are working for takes out what is effectively a group policy that covers everyone working for that facility. In that instance, you would be covered when working as a DM and following your training agency's standards BUT ONLY when you are doing DM work for the facility (store, boat, etc.) that holds the group policy. So if you're insured under the ABC dive store policy but you do work for the 123 dive shop, you're not covered for anything that happens during your work for 123.

Likewise, if you're covered under the group-type policy and you do some individual DMing/escorting THAT IS NOT SANCTIONED/SPONSORED BY YOUR FACILITY then you are not covered. As Iztok mentioned, he's covered through a shop policy so that means he's NOT covered for anything that is NOT specifically through the shop.

The insurance is pretty cheap, especially when you consider what you get. It's generally a $1 million policy PLUS costs of the defense (which can be very pricey as well). The instructor policies are around $500 and the DM policies (I think) are around $250-300 for a full year of peace of mind. IMHO, certainly better to have your own personal policy than to rely on someone else to provide the coverage for you because it's too easy to lose that coverage, either because you inadvertently did something outside of the policy, or the store failed to make a policy payment and - OOOPS - didn't tell anyone that the insurance had lapsed, which leaves you holding the bag.

And if you can't afford the insuarance, then don't become a DM. You DO open yourself up to liability issues that don't arise when you are simply a willing buddy.

- Ken

 

[bkyaffe]

As the conversation turns back to gas management as a potential "lesson to be learned" by people here in the discussion, I want to give a +1 to Blue Sparke's links from yesterday, specifically the lamont link, which is concise and clear. I know that teaching this to every OW diver would drive away a large portion of potential divers, it seems like something that *every* diver should want to understand. The simple idea that... you will have to do a little math to make sure that you and your buddy ALWAYS have enough air in either tank for you BOTH to make it to the surface seems like a pretty fundamental skill. Instead it seems that students are taught to guess about their gas timing and somehow try to arrive at the surface with 500 left, making no mention of significant OOA contingencies.

Come to think of it... here's another reason (besides DCS concerns) to start your dive deep and then finish shallower, if possible... you'll extend your dive time by lowering your rock bottom requirements (enough gas to get freaked you and freaked buddy to surface safely on only your tank) as you burn air simply by moving shallower.

-Ben

From lamont:
Rock Bottom and Gas Management for Recreational Divers | Spherical Chicken

From NWGrateful Diver:
NWGratefulDiver.com

Blue Sparkle