Casino Point - Avalon, Diver Death 9/5/11

[drbill]

Weekend quickie courses have been around for more than 10 years, so the last 5 - 10 years may not be an accurate time frame to consider. Equipment has changed a lot since the early years as well.

To me this poses the real dilemma in instruction. When I finally got certified, our "OW" course (LA County) was three weeks long with regular meetings. It essentially covered "everything" up through basic rescue. At the time there was far less knowledge about SCUBA than today, and less to teach. We didn't use BCDs, SPGs or octos back then so there was indeed a different equipment set to be instructed on. Of course we had to learn to weight ourselves much more accurately because we didn't have BCDs.

Today there is much more to learn, yet the courses are often of the quickie type. One would have to take OW, AOW and Rescue to get approximately the same training we received in OW back in the 60s. Part of the reason the original long courses were cut back and several different courses created was a matter of getting more people initiated into the activity, and not running up the cost of initial entry. This is a marketing strategy that is not IMHO based on good training re: safety. However, a course like the one I took way back then would probably cost $1,200 in today's dollars (actually about the same as mine adjusted for inflation) and be viewed as prohibitive by many divers wanting to try the activity.

 

[drbill]

End of rant (for now).



- Ken

Good rant, Ken. I agree.

Of course when I actually started using SCUBA in 1961-62, the only instruction I received at the time was not to hold my breath. Fortunately that was enough for the first 8 years until I did my very effective training and certification via LA County.

Like Ken, I really think that certification courses need to be more robust, even if it means fewer new divers get certified. I know that goes against the grain of many from certifying agents to equipment managers to dive shop owners (and for understandable reasons).

I was surprised to read Ken's statement that 80% of new divers only get OW certified. Many simply for a trip they are planning to some destination with good diving. It would benefit all of us (including other rec divers) if we could increase the percentage who go on to AOW and Rescue.

 

[blue steal]

View attachment 103373
I now know that as much as I've learned, I still don't know as much as I think I should.

Good saying Elena.
Thank you for the map, making some copies and will hand them out at the park to any who are interested.
One question for you, the Jacques Cousteau memorial plaque. I found it in 43' feet of water, following the 40' contour as suggested by someone, but would like to know where it is located on the map. Several had asked where it was, but I could not give the exact location.
Thanks

There was quite a bit of activity at the park over this last weekend

 

[D_B]

I have it bearing 46* from the stairs


from using this .. Virtual Diving - Explore your Ocean


and this map from Franko's Maps ... frankosmaps: Avalon Underwater Park & Kelp Forest Creatures=

 

[Ayisha]

Have "quickie" course been around for a while? Yes. Has their content changed? Yes. Has the amount of time you spend with an instructor who can actually discover what you know and don't know diminished? Yes. Does any of this make a difference. Oh my yes!!! (And not for the good IMDO.)

I absolutely agree with you. That is why I was trying to say that fatalities are not the only indicator of "bad" training in response to your quote:

If the training was that bad, shouldn't more people be dying?

All it takes is to look around at many dive sites and see the common results of poor training - poor buoyancy, poor trim, poor gas management and general lack of proficiency among many divers. Fatalities brought on by operator error are not the only indicator of poor training.

 

[Ayisha]

Just to clarify something here ... having a low SAC rate is only a useful justification for using a small tank on a deep dive if both you and your buddy are minimal breathers ... or if you are diving alone.
When speaking to newer divers, I think it is always important to stress that part of the gas in your tank is not yours ... it belongs to your dive buddy, and can only be used in an emergency. This is why we want to end our dive with a reserve. Since that's your buddy's gas, you have to calculate your reserves based on how much gas your buddy would need to make a safe ascent from the deepest part of your dive.

Hi Bob, just so you know, my usual buddy and I are very matched on our gas consumption and both use AL 63's. As I noted in the post you quoted, if I have a buddy that has a much higher gas consumption than me, I will use a HP steel 80 to ensure they have enough air in an emergency. We end our dives with normally between 1100 and 1500 psi, so we both have plenty of reserve for emergencies.

I recognize that our case does not apply to the vast majority and that the vast majority require at least AL 80's to do deeper dives safely - in addition to proper planning and verification. I was responding to the blanket statement that I quoted in that post that AL 80's are not appropriate for dives below 60 feet. My point was that it can be done safely within the conditions that I outlined and that proper planning and checking gauges frequently is far more important than the size of the tank.

I wouldn't, personally, ever recommend someone go to 130 feet on an AL63. Sure, you'll be fine as long as (a) you don't breathe much, (b) you make and meticulously stick to a dive plan that involves a very short time at that depth, and (c) nothing goes wrong. But for most newer divers, those are assumptions that just shouldn't be made ...

Again, we dive almost to the NDL's and maintain our reserve, so we do not have a very short time at depth. The NDL is our limiting factor, not the gas. Again, we each keep a good reserve so if something goes wrong, we should be able to deal with it appropriately.

I do understand that an AL 63 is not appropriate for the vast majority of divers, but I do not think that a blanket statement against an AL 80 or anything smaller is appropriate either. Without proper planning and checking gauges often, a diver can get into trouble with any size tank, whether it be running out of air or deco related.

 

[blue steal]

I have it bearing 46* from the stairs


from using this .. Virtual Diving - Explore your Ocean


and this map from Franko's Maps ... frankosmaps: Avalon Underwater Park & Kelp Forest Creatures=

Thanks D_B. 46 degrees it is.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

All it takes is to look around at many dive sites and see the common results of poor training - poor buoyancy, poor trim, poor gas management and general lack of proficiency among many divers. Fatalities brought on by operator error are not the only indicator of poor training.

I, on the other hand don't know

I look around and see people who dive badly, but I do not KNOW they were trained poorly.

You don't really think all the vacation divers who have not dived in 5 years are diving as well as they did on OW dive #4 10 years ago, do ya?

And if we take out all the over 40 year old couch potatoes and all the people who couldn't tell the truth on a Medical Release, are there really even that many operator error fatalities compared to past years with less couch n Releases?

The average student today is less suave, less savvy and less svelte than ever; is it any wonder the average diver today is less of a diver than ever?

 

[D_B]

My thoughts on training .... good dive training does not evaporate
.. skills do get rusty from disuse but a well trained diver is not suddenly going to be crashing into the bottom, forget his air reserve, have terrible trim or be silting up the bottom

 

[Ayisha]

I, on the other hand don't know

I look around and see people who dive badly, but I do not KNOW they were trained poorly.

You don't really think all the vacation divers who have not dived in 5 years are diving as well as they did on OW dive #4 10 years ago, do ya?

And if we take out all the over 40 year old couch potatoes and all the people who couldn't tell the truth on a Medical Release, are there really even that many operator error fatalities compared to past years with less couch n Releases?

The average student today is less suave, less savvy and less svelte than ever; is it any wonder the average diver today is less of a diver than ever?

I don't see a lot of vacation divers - only when I'm on vacation, which isn't that often. What I do see a lot are new O/W and AOW divers as well as seasoned divers and the new divers do not dive well on the whole. Most of the seasoned divers in these waters do dive well and certainly look proficient. There's a big difference in the new divers that I see compared with the experienced divers in every way - proficiency, buoyancy, trim, gas management and overall situational awareness.

So to answer your question about the proficiency of divers on dive #4, which I have seen, as well as dives after certification, many divers look like they should never have been certified. So I hope they're diving better than they did on dive #4.

Physical fitness and cardiovascular and heart health has been declining for years, so yes that plays a part. But that shouldn't greatly affect how a diver looks u/w. They can still appear proficient and still plan appropriately and still expect to dive within their current limitations.