Casino Point - Avalon, Diver Death 9/5/11

[drbill]

To answer a question Dr. Bill asked previously, you can obtain ANY Coroner's Report on ANY fatality where there was a Coroner's Investigation - not just the diving ones - by contacting the L.A. County Coroner's Office and requesting it. I think each report costs around $75-85.) The L.A. County Sheriff's will also do a separate report on their portion of the investigation but I don't believe that's part of the public record. You might be able to get it under a FOIA request but that's a lot of hoops to jump through.

Thanks, Ken.

 

[koyote1111]

I think we already had a thread on this a year or so ago but Dr. Glen Egstrom wrote a paper years ago about what it took to become proficient in a skill and his research indicated that the magic number was 17. Now that doesn't mean 16 failed attempts and on #17 you get it right and move on. That means 17 SUCCESSFUL completions of the skill. I doubt seriously that many classes nowadays have the time to do a skill correctly 17 times, let alone do mulitple skills 17 times correctly each.

Bingo! It is sometimes so difficult for me to refrain from "bashing" the whole scuba cert. process. I've been a teacher (physical education) for 25 years and 11 were also spent as a head coach. When I began my certification process, honestly...I couldn't believe it. I imagine that I had what could be considered an "average" instructor during my progression through the DM level. Oh my...what I observed during the process of certifications and internships somewhat frightened me. Because of my teaching and coaching experience, I honestly felt worried when I observed c-cards being issued to students who were in no way, shape, or form "qualified". I probably received a few myself along the way.

Most of it does come down to giving students the opportunity to actually practice...perform numerous repetitions. In my mind I found myself thinking..."and we are now going to put these people in the water on their own??? Because they were able to pull off one sufficient demonstration, they have now passed?"

Really...something needs to change...the sooner the better. In my experience, an efficient intructor seemed to be of more value (perhaps literally). Perhaps this is the way it is becoming across the board...efficiency at the expense of quality may be more so the norm. I'm also seeing this within the educational system.

Apologies for my "rant" ... I would just love to see a major overhaul in the scuba certification process.

I truly feel for these divers. I have a hunch that there were many things that they just didn't really understand, skills that had not been "groomed", etc. Also, it's tough for a new diver to even know what questions to ask.

Closing comment: It is so very important to be an instructor who is organized, possesses the art of teaching, takes pride in their "product" and is willing to raise the bar a bit (before handing out c-cards).

 

[keithbt]

After witnessing this accident, I signed up for Rescue Diver Course and start tomorrow. Maybe it will save a life oneday.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

That does not make sense. I see plenty of new OW and AOW divers. The Great Lakes and Ontario rivers are thriving with new certs from spring to fall.

Your typing does not make sense, to me. According to your definition of "a lot of new OW and AOW divers" a DM on a Key Largo cattle boat sees "a lot of new OW and AOW divers" over one X-Mass / New Years holiday, working just Molasses Reef trips.

My definition of someone who has seen a lot of new OW and AOW divers is someone who has Captained a Key Largo cattle boat to Molasses Reef, for a few years.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

... and there are certainly many threads on SB about divers disappointed in the training they have received, or have witnessed

Does anyone here participating on ScubaBoard think there is more than 2% of worldwide divers participating on ScubaBoard? There are over 200 active, working dive instructors just on this Island I live on, and way more just plain certified divers here; yet there are probably less than a dozen Maui residents who really participate on ScubaBoard.

I have been working an average of "half time" as an instructor in Hawaii for the past decade, and the few coworkers I have had who actually know about ScubaBoard all say they rarely meet a visiting diver/client who has heard of ScubaBoard. Perhaps most divers understand that they got what they paid for, and practicing is up to them.

I'd say that some students come to the class already proficient, for whatever reason. In any given class, you could problably issue a card to 20% of the students right away. It's what you do with the other 80%, and how you do it, that separates a run-of-the-mill instructor from a truly great one.

Kind of interesting how you infer that 20% don't need 17 successful repetitions, and don't follow up by saying it is really only the bottom of the barrel who do need 17 repetitions. Or is it the top of the bell curve that need 17 repetitions? Ever since my third try I can "lotus hover" with very minimal fluctuation; for many, many, many minutes.

During my IDC, when we try to catch each other not "teaching" well, I was the "student" for the mask full flood and clear. The CD told me to try to have a fully flooded mask after appearing to clear the mask and then look my "instructor" straight in the eyes and give a big "OK." Nailed it on the first try and caused nearly everyone to bust up when the "instructor/candidate" gave me back a similar "OK" and went on to the next skill. I'm confidant I could do the same now 10 years and 2 repetitions later.

I can also tell you that I have done way more than 17 repetitions on a forward double with a half twist; from 3 m spring boards, from ~10 m cliffs and from ~17 m cliffs (plus about 10 from a 20 m cliff). That is over 60 forward doubles with half twist, and I am still sketchy at forward double with half twist.

Apologies for my "rant" ... I would just love to see a major overhaul in the scuba certification process.

John and Jane Q. Public will never pay enough for a major overhaul in the scuba certification process, so it just will not happen. Who is having a bigger positive impact on diver instruction; the ones calling for 17 repetitions &/or major overhaul or the ones pushing for all of three full days with the instructor?

The reality is 24 hours is perhaps better than the norm for the vast majority, so valid solutions need to fit into at most 24 hours. Only a small fringe will pay for proficiency, and many of them only after paying for the quickie that they sucked at.

 

[drbill]

I can also tell you that I have done way more than 17 repetitions on a forward double with a half twist; from 3 m spring boards, from ~10 m cliffs and from ~17 m cliffs (plus about 10 from a 20 m cliff). That is over 60 forward doubles with half twist, and I am still sketchy at forward double with half twist.

Degree of difficulty of a task would undoubtedly affect the number of repetitions required for mastery. I certainly wouldn't equate such a dive with a task like mask clearing.

The reality is 24 hours is perhaps better than the norm for the vast majority, so valid solutions need to fit into at most 24 hours. Only a small fringe will pay for proficiency, and many of them only after paying for the quickie that they sucked at.

Your logic here escapes me. If valid solutions to the mastery of skills really can't be accomplished in 24 hours, then the time allotted for certification needs to increase. To suggest that whatever fits in a 24 hour period is sufficient for certification makes no sense.

I may not be a dive boat operator in Key Largo, but I do see thousands of divers a year in the Casino Pt. dive park. Disregarding the as-of-yet uncertified students who dive there, I would say a good percentage of the certified divers do not possess sufficient mastery of the skills.

Of course from the revenue standpoint, it is "important" for some certification agencies to keep popping out "certified" divers and equipment manufacturers and dive shops need a "critical mass" of divers to sustain their businesses. I do fault individuals who think they can become properly trained and proficient at SCUBA in a weekend (although some do). If they are not willing to invest in developing the degree of skills mastery to become safe divers, maybe they shouldn't enter SCUBA.

Perhaps offering a basic quickie certification that REQUIRES a diver to dive with a DM or instructor would be one way to go. Once they had taken advanced courses (minimum of AOW, but I'd suggest rescue as well), then they would become certified to dive without a professional. After all, that's the type of course I took... three weeks up through rescue diver... to become OW certified. And it cost a month's salary.

 

[Ayisha]

Your typing does not make sense, to me. According to your definition of "a lot of new OW and AOW divers" a DM on a Key Largo cattle boat sees "a lot of new OW and AOW divers" over one X-Mass / New Years holiday, working just Molasses Reef trips.

My definition of someone who has seen a lot of new OW and AOW divers is someone who has Captained a Key Largo cattle boat to Molasses Reef, for a few years.

Your attempt to twist the parameters does nothing to deflect from the issue. In 10 years of diving, I have seen plenty of new OW and AOW divers. Do you not think that we have our versions of cluster diving and cattle boats? Treasure dives, pumpkin carving, LDS BBQ events, typical shore dives, any of the number of boats that go out daily all spring to fall in all of the popular shipwreck diving sites around here? Yep, lots of new OW and AOW divers.

Hmm, I've also been on many cattle boats in many places around the world, including the Molasses reef "cattle boats" - and I didn't need to be the captain to see the level of skill or lack thereof the new or vacation divers displayed. In fact, I saw them not only topside, where some of them can't even put their rig together, but also in the water, unlike the captain.

If you are working on a boat, you have the ability to help a lot of people become better divers. If you are instructing, you have the ability to train divers to become proficient on a consistent basis. Do you?

If you do not produce proficient divers who master every skill, you are not teaching and certifiying to the standards. If the standards cannot be upheld, then the standards need to be changed, not ignored until accidents happen.

BTW, yesterday I told a couple that just got their OW cert in Dominican Republic and are looking for gear to use here that I saw a posting on our local board for a regulator and analog gauges at a decent price. One of them asked me, "The regulator is the thing that makes you go up and down, right?" The wife thought that was correct too. I explained to them the difference between a reg and BC, and he said "But they come together, right?" I now wonder if they even put their own gear together or broke it down. They will clearly need baby steps and more training before they dive in these conditions.

 

[D_B]

It's the instructor that passes you, or not
As Ken said, What they do with those that do need more help is very telling on what kind of instructor they are , and gives you another idea on what kind of divers he's releasing/certifying

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Your logic here escapes me. If valid solutions to the mastery of skills really can't be accomplished in 24 hours, then the time allotted for certification needs to increase. To suggest that whatever fits in a 24 hour period is sufficient for certification makes no sense.

I may not be a dive boat operator in Key Largo, but I do see thousands of divers a year in the Casino Pt. dive park. Disregarding the as-of-yet uncertified students who dive there, I would say a good percentage of the certified divers do not possess sufficient mastery of the skills.

Of course from the revenue standpoint, it is "important" for some certification agencies to keep popping out "certified" divers and equipment manufacturers and dive shops need a "critical mass" of divers to sustain their businesses. I do fault individuals who think they can become properly trained and proficient at SCUBA in a weekend (although some do). If they are not willing to invest in developing the degree of skills mastery to become safe divers, maybe they shouldn't enter SCUBA.

Perhaps offering a basic quickie certification that REQUIRES a diver to dive with a DM or instructor would be one way to go. Once they had taken advanced courses (minimum of AOW, but I'd suggest rescue as well), then they would become certified to dive without a professional. After all, that's the type of course I took... three weeks up through rescue diver... to become OW certified. And it cost a month's salary.

Looking back a few posts, please understand that I am not saying poor instruction is not happening. Society follows similar percentages across the board, with regards to educational proficiency, so just as there are some bad phys ed / coaches in terrestrial learning institutions there are bad scuba educators. I am only contending that "some" divers diving badly is not enough evidence to claim there is a epidemic of bad dive training due to the "dumbing down" of training standards.

The dive industry seems to be cranking out more and more certified divers, and yet total annual fatalities have declined (north America / DAN). Reef Huggers, with whom I mix easily, are policing the waters with ever increasing vigil, so I feel that on a percentage basis less reef damage is being done by divers per capita. Due to it's 800 lb gorilla nature, PADI takes the brunt of the bashing, but due to it's 800 lb gorilla nature, PADI's Project Aware programs do way more good than any other diving agency or group does with regards to bringing good underwater practices to the masses.

As Ken stated, some students are proficient from the start, so a 20 hour course is more than enough for them to get started. With society all bothered by issues like "equal opportunity" how easy is it going to be to tell the gamer geeks and ever widening masses that they must pay more and put in more days to be granted the same access? OW certification recommends not diving deeper than 60' and not diving in conditions different than those trained in, without additional training or additional experience. I could go on and on about all the catch 22's of beginning recreational diver certification, but what we have is a really big snowball moving really fast downhill; a realist just figures how to sleep at night after the way they ride the snowball!

 

[babygirlbowtie]

I thought my friends accident was a rare thing but it really sounds like its not. Are OW certs are being given to those without the proper training and skills.. I have not taken classes yet but if I signed up for any course that gave me a certificate that said I was proficient in a given skill that is what I would expect...in this case choosing the proper equiptment, understanding what everything is, and how it all works and the whole gas issue as well as the physical demands of different curcumstances.. it all seems pretty important... I would assume this certification was my "License" unless it said "learners permit _ you must be accompanied by a lic diver until you can test for your lic" What exactly is the OW cert??? If I take a class what is the expectation I would be given? A weekend class and your OW certified? that just sounds crazy..