Casino Point - Avalon, Diver Death 9/5/11

[MauiScubaSteve]

My thoughts on training .... good dive training does not evaporate
.. skills do get rusty from disuse but a well trained diver is not suddenly going to be crashing into the bottom, forget his air reserve, have terrible trim or be silting up the bottom

So that explains why all the police officers trained at the police academy are such perfect protectors; no perjury, no payola, no addictions, because good training does not evaporate!

So that explains why all the priests are such angels; ten commandments and such, no lusting of the lambs, because good training does not evaporate!

So that explains why all the Heads of State are such fine leaders; everyone know about the Geneva Conventions so no past Presidents or VP's are wanted war criminals outside of their home country, because good training does not evaporate!

Oh wait, lot's of humans just don't give a rat's patootie about right or wrong, good or bad; just some pretty fish pics and a log book stamp or sticker.

There are plenty of golfers who don't; rake the sand bunker, replace divots or fix ball marks on the green, and golf is the most honest game out there!

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I don't see a lot of vacation divers - only when I'm on vacation, which isn't that often. What I do see a lot are new O/W and AOW divers as well as seasoned divers and the new divers do not dive well on the whole. Most of the seasoned divers in these waters do dive well and certainly look proficient. There's a big difference in the new divers that I see compared with the experienced divers in every way - proficiency, buoyancy, trim, gas management and overall situational awareness.

So to answer your question about the proficiency of divers on dive #4, which I have seen, as well as dives after certification, many divers look like they should never have been certified. So I hope they're diving better than they did on dive #4.

Physical fitness and cardiovascular and heart health has been declining for years, so yes that plays a part. But that shouldn't greatly affect how a diver looks u/w. They can still appear proficient and still plan appropriately and still expect to dive within their current limitations.

Starting at the bottom....

A diver has to care about diving well; if they don't care how they look underwater or what you think about what they do, then their training means diddly.

Imagine that; the seasoned divers dive well and look proficient, the new divers lack proficiency. Seems like that could have been said 20 years ago, and 30 years ago, and 40 years ago.

From my perspective, if you don't often vacation dive, you don't really see a lot of new OW and AOW divers.

 

[D_B]

So that explains why all the police officers trained at the police academy are such perfect protectors; no perjury, no payola, no addictions, because good training does not evaporate!

So that explains why all the priests are such angels; ten commandments and such, no lusting of the lambs, because good training does not evaporate!

So that explains why all the Heads of State are such fine leaders; everyone know about the Geneva Conventions so no past Presidents or VP's are wanted war criminals outside of their home country, because good training does not evaporate!

Oh wait, lot's of humans just don't give a rat's patootie about right or wrong, good or bad; just some pretty fish pics and a log book stamp or sticker.

There are plenty of golfers who don't; rake the sand bunker, replace divots or fix ball marks on the green, and golf is the most honest game out there!

:huh:

Starting at the bottom....

A diver has to care about diving well; if they don't care how they look underwater or what you think about what they do, then their training means diddly.

Imagine that; the seasoned divers dive well and look proficient, the new divers lack proficiency. Seems like that could have been said 20 years ago, and 30 years ago, and 40 years ago.

From my perspective, if you don't often vacation dive, you don't really see a lot of new OW and AOW divers.

so ... most/all those that crash into the borrom, run low/out of air, have terrible trim ... is because they just dont care ... and not most likely because of their poor/inadiquite training

I dont dive that much but I've seen a lot of divers that I guess "dont care"

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

:huh:

so ... most/all those that crash into the borrom, run low/out of air, have terrible trim ... is because they just dont care ... and not most likely because of their poor/inadiquite training

I dont dive that much but I've seen a lot of divers that I guess "dont care"

As is usual on the internet, everyone seems to only see or type to the extremes.

When you see bad divers all you know for a fact is that they dive badly. Just because someone has bad trim, buoyancy, planning, etiquette, is not enough hard evidence to judge the instructor to be guilty.

 

[bkyaffe]

I know the thread has strayed a bit OT... but are there any updates/official reports/etc on the cause of this accident? I'm expecting something like OOA -> generalized freakout -> some kind of physical hangup on something under water -> fatality, though I understand we may never know.

-Ben

 

[Ayisha]

From my perspective, if you don't often vacation dive, you don't really see a lot of new OW and AOW divers.

That does not make sense. I see plenty of new OW and AOW divers. The Great Lakes and Ontario rivers are thriving with new certs from spring to fall. I have been present on some courses, I have mentored some new divers, and have had them on my chartered boats quite often. Sometimes, like this past weekend, I had to refuse new AOW divers on my advanced deep cold low viz boat dives because they scared the crap out of me the last time on much easier, warmer, clearer dives. Of course, I see and meet new OW and AOW divers all the time as well.

I said I don't see a lot of vacation divers because vacation divers don't usually choose to dive in the Great Lakes. I go to warm water locations once or twice a year, so that is the extent of vacation divers that I see. Yes, the vacation divers are easy to spot and don't look good, but the new OW or AOW divers don't look good either, sorry. You compared vacation divers to new divers and neither look good or proficient.

If the standards require proficiency and mastery of the skills, why should a newly certified diver not be able to demonstrate those skills on even a basic level? Even in the same conditions in which they were taught?

Some instructors do produce proficient, well-skilled students, but they seem to be few and far between. Even more than the student, the INSTRUCTOR needs to care about diving well and respect for the environment, possess and demonstrate the skills required consistently and take the time and effort to teach the students well.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

... but are there any updates/official reports/etc on the cause of this accident?

Last I heard, the L.A. County Coroner's offical determinantion of the cause of death is deferred pending toxicology results. This is standard procedure and you shouldn't read anything sinister into this. The tox results typically take 6-8 weeks to get back. Once they're back, the doctor who performed the autopsy will establish the COD, the various components of the final Coroner's Report will be assembled, and it becomes public record. (To answer a question Dr. Bill asked previously, you can obtain ANY Coroner's Report on ANY fatality where there was a Coroner's Investigation - not just the diving ones - by contacting the L.A. County Coroner's Office and requesting it. I think each report costs around $75-85.) The L.A. County Sheriff's will also do a separate report on their portion of the investigation but I don't believe that's part of the public record. You might be able to get it under a FOIA request but that's a lot of hoops to jump through.

I think most of the pertinent information was listed early in this thread. My GUESS is that the COD will be listed as drowning. Although that doesn't tell us much as divers, it would seem that the trigger for this was not paying close enough attention to air supply and running out of air before the surface was reached. Some degree of panic may have also factored in but that's purely speculative and impossible to ascertain post-mortem.

- Ken

 

[D_B]

As is usual on the internet, everyone seems to only see or type to the extremes.

When you see bad divers all you know for a fact is that they dive badly. Just because someone has bad trim, buoyancy, planning, etiquette, is not enough hard evidence to judge the instructor to be guilty.

Extreme? I guess I was just trying to follow your lead on post 111


I really don't know about the other divers, I just know that , for me, being rusty will not cause any of those issues I've seen in some others, that look all the world like poor training
... and there are certainly many threads on SB about divers disappointed in the training they have received, or have witnessed

 

[D_B]

snip:
Some instructors do produce proficient, well-skilled students, but they seem to be few and far between. Even more than the student, the INSTRUCTOR needs to care about diving well and respect for the environment, possess and demonstrate the skills required consistently and take the time and effort to teach the students well.

boy does that bear repeating

 

[Ken Kurtis]

Boy, talk about a setup that's like shooting fish in a barrel . . .

If the standards require proficiency and mastery of the skills, why should a newly certified diver not be able to demonstrate those skills on even a basic level?

Because you can't become proficient and master a skill, let alone multiple skills, in a "quickie" course that involves minimal pool time. I can almost guarantee you these people were no more proficient in the pool than when they showed up at the resort. Part of the problem is that some (many??) instructors today, especially the newer ones, wouldn't know proficiency if it bit them in the butt. That's because THEY aren't proficient in the skills either, based on the way they were taught. It's all part of the dumbing-down process of teaching diving that many of us mossbacks frequently complain about.

Some instructors do produce proficient, well-skilled students, but they seem to be few and far between.

I'd say that some students come to the class already proficient, for whatever reason. In any given class, you could problably issue a card to 20% of the students right away. It's what you do with the other 80%, and how you do it, that separates a run-of-the-mill instructor from a truly great one.

I think we already had a thread on this a year or so ago but Dr. Glen Egstrom wrote a paper years ago about what it took to become proficient in a skill and his research indicated that the magic number was 17. Now that doesn't mean 16 failed attempts and on #17 you get it right and move on. That means 17 SUCCESSFUL completions of the skill. I doubt seriously that many classes nowadays have the time to do a skill correctly 17 times, let alone do mulitple skills 17 times correctly each.

And therein lies part of the lack-of-proficiency problem.

- Ken