Can a Genesis K valve be O2 prepped?

[SDAnderson]

OkieDiver once bubbled...
According to LDS, Genesis K-valves come O2 ready. EPDM orings and cristo-lube. Just what I was told.

Ahh! Now we're getting somewhere. I've been trying to contact both Genesis and Cramer Decker, their parent company, to find out what they have to say about my little problem. If, indeed, the valves come from the mfr. with EPDM rings/seat and Cristo-Lube, then I don't know what would disqualify the valve from being called O2 ready - they didn't make the valve stems from titanium. Unfortunately, I can't find anything on the Genesis website that addresses this.

If your LDS can give me a hint about where to find some support material for this, I'd be appreciative.

Thanks, in advance.

Steven

 

[Genesis]

took these valves, installed them on new, O2-clean cylinders (from the manufacturer), and put a PP blending-ok sticker on them!

Yes, you read that right - they took the valves out of the box and installed them, direct from the manufacturer.

And since they fill them this way all the time, if they were wrong about that it would be their butt that they blow up.

That was good enough for me.

 

[pescador775]

Probably a mistake on the LDS's part. Scuba valves are little different from a kitchen faucet (tap to our Brit friends). That's how simple they are. The valve needs to be disassembled and soaked in solvent or detergent. Some valves use teflon washers for the packing but others may have one or two O rings which should be replaced as normal maintanence. Use Viton rings. Grease with Krytox or Christolube. The part which he is looking for is probably an O2 approved seat. Just use the old one.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I have spoken to Genesis about this. Genesis aproves their valves for use with F02 up to 40% PERIOD. I specifically asked about PP blending. I was told up to 40% only. I asked how they suggest getting 40% in the tank without passing 100% O2 through the valve. All they would say is only up to 40%.

I have had their valves on tanks used for PP blending eanx and I didn't burn up. However if I did burn up the manufacturer would surely point out the fact that they say not to do it.

An LDS may very well be to gun shy to go against the manufacturers recommendation. This does not imply a dishonest attempt to sell you new valves.

A tech shop is more likely to be willing to use them. One reason is most of the equipment we use is not recommended for use with pure O2 by the manufacturer but tech divers are used to it and have done it anyway for a long time.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...
took these valves, installed them on new, O2-clean cylinders (from the manufacturer), and put a PP blending-ok sticker on them!

Yes, you read that right - they took the valves out of the box and installed them, direct from the manufacturer.

And since they fill them this way all the time, if they were wrong about that it would be their butt that they blow up.

That was good enough for me.

O2 has been pumped in to and through some pretty dirty things without making fire. Remember fuel is only part of the fire equation so a nice slow fill may make it possible but there is always a risk. The question is how much risk. Nothing is clean the goal is to get it clean enough. Using these valves right out of the box for O2 isn't something I would do especially given the fact that the manufacturer says not to do it at all. There is no reason not to take the very reasonable precaution of cleaning the valve. This is one of those things that make those doing PP blending gun shy about filling tanks other than their own or at least being picky about the ones they trust.

Having to use equipment for O2 that isn't aproved for it by the manufacturer is something that tech divers have endured for years and it is a long way from being over. Most manufacturers are still scared to death of it. Most of us still clean the stuff though.

 

[Genesis]

the O-rings and such are already O2 compatable materials and Genesis uses Christolube (or it may have been Krytox - anyway, its O2 compatable lube) at the factory.

I questioned it when I saw it - after all, I was the one buying the cylinders - this was the explanation that I got.

I don't think there are many manufacturers that put a "100% FO2 OK" sticker on ANYTHING they make. In fact, if you look through the catalogs and such, you won't find that. The "nitrox" regs and such you see sold still have the 40% FO2 limitation in the "fine print".

I guess I understand it from a liability standpoint, but the welding guys gotta be laughing their butts off. They've been using pure O2 for quite some time, and without all this hullaballu. As you noted, its all about heat, fuel and O2 when it comes to fire....

 

[SDAnderson]

Here's the update on The Great Genesis Valve Controversy:

By way of background, the LDS that I've been dealing with is a fairly tech oriented shop. They carry a number of "tech" brands/gear and teach a couple of "tech" agencies, they also do He fills, etc. They organize local charters and more exotic trips for “tech” divers (outside recreational bounds) on a regular basis. The owner has been diving forever and was a commercial diver for many years before becoming a DSM. He even has nice things to say about DIR diving. I pretty much listen when he speaks, although I am fairly retentive by nature and am strongly disposed to question authority.

Start with the premise that materials and contamination that are fine in normal high-pressure air are not acceptable in high-pressure O2 applications - that old fire bugaboo. I don’t pretend to have made a more than cursory glance at the physics involved, but when you line the “experts” up on opposite sides of the table, it’s clearly science vs anecdote with everyone at the table having their own vested interest. There is a lot of data coming from some fairly serious authorities on the science side of the table and, as someone once said, the plural of anecdote is not necessarily data. Based upon all of the information that I have available and my own personal prejudices, I want any tank of mine that will be exposed to higher than 40% O2 to be certified as O2 ready - both prepped and cleaned. I don’t care about tanks that will not see more than 40% O2.

The LDS says he spoke with Genesis (a line that he does not carry) a couple of times researching how to convert my valves to high O2 use. The results: Genesis says that their yoke valve (model KA-30) is okay for nitrox use straight out of the box. The fine print, according to Genesis (and as Mike Ferrara reported), is that they limit that certification to 40%. Period - partial pressure fills and EAN mixes greater than 40% constitute a misuse of their equipment. Genesis does not have, and does not know of, a line of parts that will allow their valves to be converted to high O2 use. I like to add that I have been sending emails to both Genesis and their parent company, Cramer Decker Industires, for days asking questions about this issue and have yet to receive a reply - they could really help by being a little more forthcoming on this issue. Cramer Decker is the same company that owns Sherwood (more valves) and Akona, along with a medical valve supply company, so they should be an authority on both scuba valves and high O2 applications.

The LDS fills by partial pressure and also knew that I was looking to convert the tank for use with way-higher than 40% mixes. To paraphrase the LDS, if Genesis isn't willing to put their wallet on the line for high O2 use, he isn't willing to put his (or his employees/customers) a*s on the line, especially when there are valves out there that ARE high O2 certified. It just isn't necessary.

Although swapping O-rings and lubricants is easy, the seat is the piece that takes the brunt of the gas flow and is the single most important part to replace in a conversion, or so I’m told. As discussed, Genesis was unable to be of assistance. There is, apparently, at least one manufacturer/vendor (A Plus Marine) that sells an O2 conversion kit for Genesis valves, but I don't know anything about them. The LDS had heard of them but doesn't do business with them - not that he wouldn't, but it's not possible to know and buy from every vendor out there. None of his normal vendors carries an O2 ready Genesis valve seat or conversion kit.

There is also a point where trying to figure out a way to convert this valve becomes counter-productive for the LDS and for me. When he told me that he couldn't convert the Genesis valve he offered to sell me a nitrox marked Thermo DIN valve with a K valve insert, which he tells me is rated for 100% O2 out of the box. He quoted me a price of $38.00 for the new valve, including the return of the old Genesis valve to me. I’d also save the $15.00 he was going to charge me to convert the old valve, reducing the added expense to replace the valve to $23.00. There is, in all fairness, a limit to how much time and energy I should expect him to invest in this - that being how much am I willing to pay.

In the end, his decision and recommendation sounds very fair to me. Cutting through the spin, Genesis has to be considered an authority and they say that the valve is not suitable for use in high O2 applications and that there is no approved way to convert it. I understand the argument about standards and paranoia and the dive industry, but I’m comfortable choosing to fight this paranoia by insisting that the manufacturers take a stand or fall. I don’t see any reason to cobble together a solution when replacement is cheaper, faster and probably better. Plus, I get a valve that allows for use with both my DIN and yoke regulators. If nothing else, I’ll credit myself with supporting my local dive shop and sleep better without nightmares of flame-spurting valves.

Thanks again to all who weighed in on this, it’s been educational.

Steven

 

[Genesis]

makes nice valves. If they're willing to certify them as O2 clean out of the box that'd be enough for me

Its surprising that Genesis won't, but I suspect that the crux of the issue is one of liability rather than compatability.

The O2 bugaboo is real interesting in the scuba marketplace. I particularly love the "Nitrox regs" that some manufacturers sell - with the 40% FO2 restriction! Yet most regs IN GENERAL are ok up to 40% FO2...... So exactly what was it you paid the extra $100 for, again?

I believe (and this is just opinion here!) that a big part of the problem is that most shops fill Grade "E" air. So if you start with a "clean" device, the first time you put that air through it you lose the O2 service rating "technically" and, if you do it long enough, there will be some hydrocarbon deposition in the internal workings. Since "the standard" for regular air in a scuba shop is Grade E, manufacturers are (justifyably?) paranoid that someone is going to take an "O2 ready" reg, valve, whatever, screw it on a tank, fill it full of Grade E air for a while, then put it on a tank and slam open a valve with 100% O2 behind that at high pressure and have a fire - and when they do, they'll come back after the manufacturer.

Its not an entirely preposterous proposition when one looks at it from that point of view and with the relatively-cavalier way that many divers, and even some shops, treat gear....

Unless and unless the standard for scuba becomes "Modified J" grade, or "oxygen compatable", when we're talking about simple AIR fills (unlikely due to the extra filtration cost) this is likely to persist, right or wrong....

 

[SDAnderson]

A couple of good points!

I agree that there is a likelihood that this is nothing more than a liability issue - for both the manufacturer and the LDS. Genesis doesn't want to be held accountable if disaster strikes and considers the risk to be great enough that they limit their liability. The LDS doesn't want to get blown up and considers the risk to be great enough that he will only use parts and processes that are high-O2 compatible. There is a chance that the Genesis valve is O2 compatible, but if they say "No," who am I to challenge them?

I think that a 40% restriction on O2 certification is pointless. Actually, I'd say it's closer to misleading, unless it's prominently disclosed. 40% just isn't a high enough O2% to be a danger, or so it seems. From a liability standpoint, peddling a device as O2 ready with a limit of 40% is perfect - you get to charge extra for something that isn't needed and that doesn't cost you anything. I suspect that somewhere there is a committee of marketing guys and attorneys that are still laughing about this...and cashing the checks.

In my neck of the woods, most of the shops are very careful about EAN fills, especially since most of them partial pressure fill. If you prep/clean/inspect your own tanks they are going to take a wide-eyed look at you and have a bunch of questions, at the very least, before they will fill your tanks. Some won't fill EAN tanks that they haven't inspected/cleaned - period. I think that this is pretty sensible - for the same reasons you mentioned - but I do have tendency to ask questions and to get my panties in a bunch if the answer doesn't make sense. Ultimately any confusion would be my fault for not asking for more details when I was told of the problem.

All in all, I'm okay with the way things worked out. I thought I might be getting my chain yanked by the LDS, but once I started asking questions the answers starting making more sense. In the end, I got a tank that the LDS and I are comfortable with, which is worth a few dollars.

Just for grins, the total cost of the conversion was $73.00. This includes the new Themo nitrox DIN/K valve, the tumble, installation of the valve, and a VIP with Nitrox certification stickers. Had they been able to rebuild the valve instead of replacing it, the cost would have been $50.00. This is competitive in Chicago, but I'd love to hear what the rest of the world is paying. Add $12.00 for a 40cf fill with EAN50.

Steven

 

[SDAnderson]

I received the following email from Cramer-Decker (the company that owns both Genesis and Sherwood) regarding my questions about their valves and oxygen use/conversion:

"None of the Genesis or Sherwood valves comes from the manufacturer O2 clean. If this is something you which to have, you will need to take it to an authorized repair center skilled in the use of Enriched Air to have the valve and tank prepared for use.

Thanks,
Bob Grundmeyer - Technical Support
Cramer-Decker Industries"