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Wa'll hogtie me with a miflex hose, I learned a few things here. Thank'ee.
BSAC on Hogarthian rigging and Primary take for out of gas response
- Thread starter Thalassamania
- Start date
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BHB ScubaTroll
Contributor
Hmmm.... interesting...
I do not dive DIR, I do not dive HOG... I dive BP/W and use a 7' primary.
I used to dive (and still have) a full BC (SP Classic with an SP2Air2 system). From initial certification as an open water diver all the way through instructor I have never needed to buddy breath during an emergency...
The first weekend I had a 7' hose with bp/w I noticed a diver with 200 psi on their safety stop and a strong current... and a swim back to the boat. I ducked my head and "insisted" they take my primary for the rest of their safety stop... on board the boat, they thanked me for giving them the opportunity to board the boat under their own scuba system because of my offer of extra air, and related to me that they learned an important lesson about being alert... because of my efforts...
This is an example of vertical donation of the primary which allowed a diver the chance to make their way back to the dive boat on their own scuba without worry of a OOA situation There really were no worries about proximity because of the 7' hose and the low-air diver only needed to hold the buoy line and breath... This issue only dealt with the safety of the dive's finish for an individual...
My second issue was a beach dive at Venice Beach Fl. The swim out is 300 - 600 yds. This is a normal dive for those who have been there and they know when to begin their heading to the east in order to make the beach...
I offered my services as a dive guide for the area to a diver from out of state (We Conchs have a tendency to do that). We were diving for sharks teeth and making progress... Me... HP100, her...AL80... I can usually dive for 2.5 hours under these conditions (heading in after 2 hours will give me 200-300 psi at shore)... After 1 hour I signaled her to tell me how much air she had left (20' of water) and was surprised to see her indicate 750 psi. I signaled that I still had 2000 psi and that we should start toward shore... she acknowledged and followed... After a slow swim... I noticed she was no longer following my kicks with the current, so I surfaced to find her bubbles...
It turns out she didn't want to go below "500 psi" (don't even get me started on that one...) so she surfaced and began swimming the last 300 yds. on the surface... I let her know that swimming below the surface would allow us to take advantage of the current, and that I still had 1800 psi, so we could use the current and my air on the bottom to make a relaxed advance on the shore...
This is an example of horizontal donation of the primary which allowed a diver the chance to make their way back to shore without issue and without a worry of a OOA situation
Is a primary donation necessary? I don't think so in most situations... Is a primary donation conveniently safer and easier in many situations? I think it certainly is and has made my life under water that much easier...
Hell, I even posted to a thread Thalassamania started... I know I'm just asking for trouble now...
To NOTE: My examples are only "to donate" I do not agree with teaching "primary take". I only believe that most under-experienced divers will "primary take" no matter what is taught... and, I am not sure yet whether I would be one of those in a life/death situation... taught or not...
I do not dive DIR, I do not dive HOG... I dive BP/W and use a 7' primary.
I used to dive (and still have) a full BC (SP Classic with an SP2Air2 system). From initial certification as an open water diver all the way through instructor I have never needed to buddy breath during an emergency...
The first weekend I had a 7' hose with bp/w I noticed a diver with 200 psi on their safety stop and a strong current... and a swim back to the boat. I ducked my head and "insisted" they take my primary for the rest of their safety stop... on board the boat, they thanked me for giving them the opportunity to board the boat under their own scuba system because of my offer of extra air, and related to me that they learned an important lesson about being alert... because of my efforts...
This is an example of vertical donation of the primary which allowed a diver the chance to make their way back to the dive boat on their own scuba without worry of a OOA situation There really were no worries about proximity because of the 7' hose and the low-air diver only needed to hold the buoy line and breath... This issue only dealt with the safety of the dive's finish for an individual...
My second issue was a beach dive at Venice Beach Fl. The swim out is 300 - 600 yds. This is a normal dive for those who have been there and they know when to begin their heading to the east in order to make the beach...
I offered my services as a dive guide for the area to a diver from out of state (We Conchs have a tendency to do that). We were diving for sharks teeth and making progress... Me... HP100, her...AL80... I can usually dive for 2.5 hours under these conditions (heading in after 2 hours will give me 200-300 psi at shore)... After 1 hour I signaled her to tell me how much air she had left (20' of water) and was surprised to see her indicate 750 psi. I signaled that I still had 2000 psi and that we should start toward shore... she acknowledged and followed... After a slow swim... I noticed she was no longer following my kicks with the current, so I surfaced to find her bubbles...
It turns out she didn't want to go below "500 psi" (don't even get me started on that one...) so she surfaced and began swimming the last 300 yds. on the surface... I let her know that swimming below the surface would allow us to take advantage of the current, and that I still had 1800 psi, so we could use the current and my air on the bottom to make a relaxed advance on the shore...
This is an example of horizontal donation of the primary which allowed a diver the chance to make their way back to shore without issue and without a worry of a OOA situation
Is a primary donation necessary? I don't think so in most situations... Is a primary donation conveniently safer and easier in many situations? I think it certainly is and has made my life under water that much easier...
Hell, I even posted to a thread Thalassamania started... I know I'm just asking for trouble now...
To NOTE: My examples are only "to donate" I do not agree with teaching "primary take". I only believe that most under-experienced divers will "primary take" no matter what is taught... and, I am not sure yet whether I would be one of those in a life/death situation... taught or not...
DaleC
Contributor
Well I dive that independant twinset he talks about but I'm not going to put two long hoses on. No siree. That's a lot of "hose" to "stuff".
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Does this fellow, by any chance, post to ScubaBoard under the screen name of Nemrod?bsac:
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
LiteHedded
Contributor
are people really calling it hoglooping?
sounds silly
sounds silly
captain
Contributor
Hey Nem, now they think you have an alias or an evil twin maybe.
I know Nemrod personally and he is not the Mr. Rowley fellow.
Also, to echo Cerich, I was trained under the NAUI ITD program and we were taught that the longhose is mandatory for the NTEC (Naui technical equipment configuration).
I am pretty far removed from the three letter folks (GUE, UTD, who cares, blah blah) but the BSAC policy sounds a bit....dimwitted to me. Stuffing the long hose into a bungee is a pain in the butt and makes restowing without a buddy really difficult. I may not dive "DIR", but a lot of what the GUE does makes sense.
Blackwood
Contributor
LOL, no, they are just upset to learn that outside of the "vocal minority" here on scubaboard that in the real world, there are people who do not agree with them and who are not going to be arm twisted or bullied into the Borg Think.
No, I do not live in Britain and I am not a BSAC diver
but I do tend to agree with at least some of the fellows analysis, though not completely. I fully agree with DIR concepts and Hog rigging for overhead diving in a technical setting. It is the partial implementation of the system by sport divers without realizing the entire concept and the heavy push of the long hose as primary and primary donation by tech divers onto recreational divers that is irresponsible and potentially dangerous.Yes, Mr. Ungrateful Diver et al, :mooner:.
After the last few crazy long hose or no hose threads, I am buying a clear mask (actually just ordered it) and some split fins and I am picking out for Christmas a new BC genuine poodle jacket complete with weight integration. I like that SP Equator but may get the little Aeris Sport or AL Zuma. Oh, and I am getting the air integrated BC inflator thingy too. It will be my new travel rig.
. I am completely serious. Oops, is that Nemrod with a "long hose" hmmm:
After that death surface swim, back in the Bahamas, remember that day Slonda, the five foot seas and the boat broke loose
and dragging my wife after it with camera in one hand and my 18 pound Oxy Mach V kept shoving my face into the waves, no, I think one of those nice plush poodle jackets would have been awfully nice. Between saving my camera and saving my wife, I nearly died. 
Much to the dismay of many, however, I did not. 
N
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