BSAC on “Hogarthian rigging” and “Primary take” for “out of gas response”

[lamont]

Has re-stowage ever been the "defining criterion?"

Who ever suggested that restowing the hose without assistance is a significant consideration? I must have missed the memo.

George made it a big deal.

Problem is that if you have a gas access issue back in a cave at a gas switch (in technical diving most OOA donations should be gas access issues, not gas loss issues), then you will absolutely need to get the long hose stowed properly -- quickly and easily -- or else you risk catching it and slowing down your exist (possibly cutting it) or you waste time and possibly risk silting as your buddy assists in restuffing the long hose.

Also, if you're in a three man team and one buddy does have an OOA/gas-loss issue back in a cave you'd want to switch off on the exit so as not to balance the gas consumption on the exit.

If you google george/trey irvine and "stuffing the long hose" you should find his rants...

...

Still, the long hose is *the* fastest and best way to deliver gas to an OOA diver, which is the really bizzare reason for their rationale in choosing stuffing the long hose and putting it in the triangle because that is "easier to deploy".

Having tried to save someone who blew their lungs secondary to a failed attempt to donate an octopus secured in the triangle, and therefore seen an actual fatality where the octo gear config was involved and failed to deploy, what I like most about donating the primary is that the *mouth* is a fantastically designed quick-release that:

- always releases when you need to donate and never gets stuck in your mouth like an octo can get stuck in a holder

- if it ever pops out of your mouth, the diver will immediately be "notified" of that issue and will be *highly* incentivized to fix their gear config, and the long hose config is absolutely immune to the problem of the primary unintentionally falling out of his holder and trailing behind the diver, spewing bubbles...

 

[Blackwood]

I
They even claimed that only one US technical diving agency is promoting the long hose

The way I read it, he wasn't saying that there is only one agency teaching it, but rather only one that promotes it exclusively. Other agencies may allow it (and require it for some classes), but AFAIK only GUE, UTD and maybe NACD require it explicitly for every class (the later two of which he may not be familiar).

Either way, I think he was acknowledging that it is taught, not diminishing it as fringe. (In that statement, anyway)

 

[BabyDuck]

afaik (which admittedly ain't that far), nacd *and* nss-cds require it. tdi? naui tech? dunno. anyone? anyone?

 

[Sas]

I think you guys are getting mixed up. The letter isn't anti-long hose, it is anti hoglooping it and anti primary take. I think it is confusing as I don't think agencies teach primary take so not sure what US one they are referring to but probably GUE.

 

[lamont]

The way I read it, he wasn't saying that there is only one agency teaching it, but rather only one that promotes it exclusively. Other agencies may allow it (and require it for some classes), but AFAIK only GUE, UTD and maybe NACD require it explicitly for every class (the later two of which he may not be familiar).

Either way, I think he was acknowledging that it is taught, not diminishing it as fringe. (In that statement, anyway)

The NAUI Tech equipment standard also mandates the long hose, doesn't it? (that may not be the entire agency, if you include NAUIs recreational side, and there may be exceptions for sidemount or rebreather configs i'm not aware of, but i thought NAUI was nearly as regimented as GUE about the equipment config for vanilla OC technical diving...)

 

[lamont]

I think you guys are getting mixed up. The letter isn't anti-long hose, it is anti hoglooping it and anti primary take. I think it is confusing as I don't think agencies teach primary take so not sure what US one they are referring to but probably GUE.

The problem is that in the terminology "long hose" has become conflated with the practice of having a 2m/7ft long hose wrapped hogarthian style with "primary donate" and does not include the practice of stuffing the long hose. It doesn't just mean having a long hose. Maybe we should be more specific about what we're saying, but stuffing the long hose basically 'lost' in the marketplace of ideas some time ago, so most people assume 'the long hose' refers to a GUE/UTD/NTEC/etc 'long hose' config and not stuffing it, and people have gotten lazy with terminology.

 

[Sas]

The problem is that in the terminology "long hose" has become conflated with the practice of having a 2m/7ft long hose wrapped hogarthian style with "primary donate" and does not include the practice of stuffing the long hose. It doesn't just mean having a long hose. Maybe we should be more specific about what we're saying, but stuffing the long hose basically 'lost' in the marketplace of ideas some time ago, so most people assume 'the long hose' refers to a GUE/UTD/NTEC/etc 'long hose' config and not stuffing it, and people have gotten lazy with terminology.

Well yea that is why I mentioned it as it was confusing to me what you guys were talking about - hog looping long hose or just long hose and also people seem to keep talking about primary donation rather than primary take (such as your post discussing the benefits of primary donation).

I mean, I think the letter is dumb and narrow minded, etc, etc but it isn't anti-long hose or anti-primary donation

 

[lamont]

Well yea that is why I mentioned it as it was confusing to me what you guys were talking about - hog looping long hose or just long hose and also people seem to keep talking about primary donation rather than primary take (such as your post discussing the benefits of primary donation).

I mean, I think the letter is dumb and narrow minded, etc, etc but it isn't anti-long hose or anti-primary donation

AFAIK, the only place that I've read about "primary take" being taught is here on scubaboard, which does lead me to believe that this BSAC policy is a response to threads on scubaboard.

It is commonly mentioned that in an actual OOG situation, you *might* encounter a diver in a panic for their life, who would go for the reg you were breathing. In that case, primary donation is also optimized for the situation where it turns into a "primary take". But I've always seen it taught as "primary donation".

I have had an instructor bat the reg out of my mouth (about 1,000 feet back in a cave), but that was to start an OOG situation and make me go for my buddies gas -- which i signaled to my buddy who then donated...

EDIT: also it does seem to be at least slanderous of primary donation. i thought it was anti-primary donation, but now on re-reading it, it doesn't seem to ban that, but just raises all the usual debunked issues...

 

[Sas]

AFAIK, the only place that I've read about "primary take" being taught is here on scubaboard, which does lead me to believe that this BSAC policy is a response to threads on scubaboard.

I have been told that a few instructors here and there locally teach primary take but I have never been taught that...

I don't know why a British training agency would be formulating policy based on what they've read on a US-centric diving forum, but I am not going to presume one way or another given I am not privy to any agency's internal working out of standards

It is commonly mentioned that in an actual OOG situation, you *might* encounter a diver in a panic for their life, who would go for the reg you were breathing. In that case, primary donation is also optimized for the situation where it turns into a "primary take". But I've always seen it taught as "primary donation".

I have had an instructor bat the reg out of my mouth (about 1,000 feet back in a cave), but that was to start an OOG situation and make me go for my buddies gas -- which i signaled to my buddy who then donated...

Same here and I have had instructors pull my reg too, to simulate that someone might go for my primary regulator. My buddy has done this to me on numerous occassions as well to practice dealing with that. We did it especially so after switching to long hose (hog looped ) setup to see if there were going to be issues with it catching in various positions. There wasn't.

 

[mikemill]

I wasn't aware that I can't donate my long hose if my body isn't prone. I guess if I'm vertical it's going to get stuck between my legs?

Obvious photoshops such at these should be stricken from the intrawebs since they perpetuate the lie that it's possible to slightly duck one's head even in a vertical position.




Personally, I couldn't care less what anyone chooses to teach, but this is just funny.

Hey now, no using the pictures from my essentials class to prove your point, regardless of how valid it is