BP/Wing as your first BC?

[Puffer Fish]

Welcome to the board and to diving. Don't confuse the overly vocal opinions of a few with fact. There are plenty of experienced divers who choose not to use a BP/wing, including myself. Nothing wrong with a BP and if I were doing tech diving, it would be the BC I would choose but I was not impress with them for the diving I do. They are a pain to adjust, require a weight belt and did not provide any advantages that outweighted the disadvantages for me. And from some of the comments I have seen here lately, they have gotten expensive. You may find you like it or you may not. The best advise is still to rent/borrow several BCs of different types and find what suits you best.
For what little it's worth I do prefer back inflate BCs (a BP/wing is a type of back inflate) over jackets but I have and can dive in them all.

Herman, I happen to agree with you... I have both a back inflate and a BP/W. Dive the BP/W most of the time, but there is a place for a BC. LP steel tanks throw me too far backward on the surface and if in warm water, don't have enough weight to correct, so I don't use it under those conditions.

Aluminum tanks require weight on the tank bands, which added to the cost of the BP/W. Anding attachments added cost.. added pockets added cost.

Still like the BP/W, but it is not the low cost solution most would think.

 

[PerroneFord]

LP steel tanks throw me too far backward on the surface and if in warm water, don't have enough weight to correct, so I don't use it under those conditions.

And you rate this as a problem with the BP/W? Curious. I'd say your BP/W was misadjusted, as this is certainly not a problem for anyone I dive with, and we dive with TWO LP steel tanks on our backs.

Aluminum tanks require weight on the tank bands, which added to the cost of the BP/W. Anding attachments added cost.. added pockets added cost.

Really? I've never put any weights on my cambands. How much expense are you talking anyway? A couple of 2 or 4 pound weights threaded onto a camband couldn't cost more than $10-$15. What "attachments" are you saying add costs? Why are you adding pockets? The entire idea of the BP/W is to keep pockets OFF the BC. If you attempt to replicate a BC with a BP/W then certainly you will add costs.

Still like the BP/W, but it is not the low cost solution most would think.

I think I can now see why you'd say this. Unfortunate. For many, it is a low cost solution.

 

[Doubles]

Aluminum tanks require weight on the tank bands, which added to the cost of the BP/W. Anding attachments added cost.. added pockets added cost.

So your saying you don't need to add weight for an aluminum tank when you wear a jacket or rear inflate bc?

I don't experience that problem with my bp/wing. If you need weight why not just wear a weight belt if the add on pockets are too expensive?

-s

 

[Puffer Fish]

So your saying you don't need to add weight for an aluminum tank when you wear a jacket or rear inflate bc?

I don't experience that problem with my bp/wing. If you need weight why not just wear a weight belt if the add on pockets are too expensive?

-s

Regarding weight adding to a BC, that is correct.. I can wear a LP steel, HP steel or AL tank with my BC and it makes very little difference. I do have to vary the amount I inflate on the surface, but the design has inflatable "wings" that are in line with your body.

A BP/W works extremely well underwater (for most uses, but not all), however, it is inherently sensitive to tank weighting. If you look at the range of possible variation, it is around 15 lbs of weight, placed various distances from the wing behind you.

Many people just dive one kind of tank.. which is great for balance and trim...just as many people only do a couple types of diving...I don't. I have an Aluminum solution (4 lbs on the bands in two pockets). I have a HP Steel solution (nothing on the back of the tank) and I don't have a LP solution.

Put an 8 lb negative tank on my back and I will be leaning backwards. No big deal right.. just swim on your back. That works in a pond.. in calm waters...or for a small swim back to a boat, but do a drift dive where you may be sitting in 5 ft seas for 20 minutes or so, with a small possibility they loose you for a bit and it may be longer. Worse yet, what if the boat has to deal with a real emergency for a while, and just leaves you out there?

Different people, different suits effect a BP/W more that a BC.. why? For the same reason that you have better horizontal trim with a BP/W. The air is away from your body, as apposed to wrapped around you.

There are times, where your flotation device needs to be a bit of a life preserver...inexperienced people like PerroneFord assume that what they dive in is what the rest of the world is diving in... and because of that, if everyone does not use the same equipment, there must be something wrong with them.

A BP/W is a great tool, when used in the correct place, for the right reasons, it is not, however, the answer to every issue, every problem or every situation.

Sadly, there are lots of internet divers that don't seem to understand that.

 

[Puffer Fish]

And you rate this as a problem with the BP/W? Curious. I'd say your BP/W was misadjusted, as this is certainly not a problem for anyone I dive with, and we dive with TWO LP steel tanks on our backs.



Really? I've never put any weights on my cambands. How much expense are you talking anyway? A couple of 2 or 4 pound weights threaded onto a camband couldn't cost more than $10-$15. What "attachments" are you saying add costs? Why are you adding pockets? The entire idea of the BP/W is to keep pockets OFF the BC. If you attempt to replicate a BC with a BP/W then certainly you will add costs.




I think I can now see why you'd say this. Unfortunate. For many, it is a low cost solution.

One day, maybe, just maybe you will understand how silly the above post was.

Yes, I could just thread weights onto my tank band...except that I dive a lot more than you do.. and sometimes, three or four tanks in a day. Doing a tank band change on a boat being thrown around is not my idea of fun... hence the pouches..

Adjust the location of the bladder? (That is the reason for weight issues) You must have a much more "adjustable" backplate/Wing than I do. Mine is just attached.

Pockets - other than the weight pouches, don't have any. However, you do raise a very valuable point.. if you have other things to carry, and you don't put them on the BP/W.. they you need something to hold them.. Which means pockets...but if they are on the suit, but they are needed because the BP/W does not have them, then they are part of the cost of having a BP/W.

 

[PerroneFord]

inexperienced people like PerroneFord assume that what they dive in is what the rest of the world is diving in... and because of that, if everyone does not use the same equipment, there must be something wrong with them.

LOL! Thanks for pointing this out. I'll have to work on not thinking everyone in the world dives what I dive. Honestly though, I don't think anything is wrong with diving in whatever BC anyone wants to use. I've never found it to matter too much for single tank diving as long as the skill was there. When I put on a BC other than a BP/W I don't find that I have any other difficulties.

 

[PerroneFord]

One day, maybe, just maybe you will understand how silly the above post was.

Probably not. Oh well.

Yes, I could just thread weights onto my tank band...except that I dive a lot more than you do.. and sometimes, three or four tanks in a day. Doing a tank band change on a boat being thrown around is not my idea of fun... hence the pouches..

Three of four tanks a day. Hmmm, I guess that trumps my three of four tanks a dive. Regardless, as an instructor/asst. instructor/ dive master/dive con, I am sure you dive far more than me. And in very different conditions. If the pouches work for you, terrific.

Adjust the location of the bladder? (That is the reason for weight issues) You must have a much more "adjustable" backplate/Wing than I do. Mine is just attached.

Perhaps I do. Most of my wings have 2-3 holes, and many backplates contain more than one set of holes (like my DSS). The combination of the two gives quite a bit of flexibility to move things around.

Pockets - other than the weight pouches, don't have any. However, you do raise a very valuable point.. if you have other things to carry, and you don't put them on the BP/W.. they you need something to hold them.. Which means pockets...but if they are on the suit, but they are needed because the BP/W does not have them, then they are part of the cost of having a BP/W.

I don't see this as being necessarily the case. I'd use pockets on my suit whether I had a BP/W or not. That is not a causal relationship. The pockets in a normal BC are nearly unusable for the things I want to carry.

 

[Doubles]

Regarding weight adding to a BC, that is correct.. I can wear a LP steel, HP steel or AL tank with my BC and it makes very little difference.

This doesn't float (pun intended) given the difference in buoyancy characteristics of those tanks. Unless your making a tank height adjustment; which would work for the BP/Wing too. I hope your diving less weight with steel - if not you may be overweighted??

A BP/W works extremely well underwater (for most uses, but not all), however, it is inherently sensitive to tank weighting. If you look at the range of possible variation, it is around 15 lbs of weight, placed various distances from the wing behind you.

Not sure I agree with 15lbs. However adjusting the height of the tank is a better solution in my book than adding weight.

Many people just dive one kind of tank.. which is great for balance and trim...just as many people only do a couple types of diving...I don't. I have an Aluminum solution (4 lbs on the bands in two pockets). I have a HP Steel solution (nothing on the back of the tank) and I don't have a LP solution.

I dive AL80's, HP Steel 100's (single/doubles), LP Steel 95's, and HP Steel 120's. I dive both a Zeagle ranger BC and a Zeagle BP/Wing. I never use any weight with the steel tanks, and only 10 lbs with the AL80. I only dive the BC in a pool with students anymore and use the BP/Wing for all other diving. I position my BP/Wing differently on each tank as a way of controlling the trim.

Put an 8 lb negative tank on my back and I will be leaning backwards. No big deal right.. just swim on your back. That works in a pond.. in calm waters...or for a small swim back to a boat, but do a drift dive where you may be sitting in 5 ft seas for 20 minutes or so, with a small possibility they loose you for a bit and it may be longer. Worse yet, what if the boat has to deal with a real emergency for a while, and just leaves you out there?

A BP/Wing would be ideal for a tank that was 8 lb's negative. Since the inflation is behind you. A bc with inflation on your sides or in front would help put on your back

Different people, different suits effect a BP/W more that a BC.. why? For the same reason that you have better horizontal trim with a BP/W. The air is away from your body, as apposed to wrapped around you.

If the characteristics of the person and their "suits" affect a bp/wing, those same characteristics would also affect a bc.

There are times, where your flotation device needs to be a bit of a life preserver...inexperienced people like PerroneFord assume that what they dive in is what the rest of the world is diving in... and because of that, if everyone does not use the same equipment, there must be something wrong with them.

My experience in 20 years of service in the US Coast Guard has shown me that a BC is not the same as a life jacket. At best it resembles the characteristics of a type III PFD. Type III PFD's are not designed to keep your head out of the water. If you read your BC's manuals and labels, I bet you will find a big warning statement that says it's not like a life jacket.

I also think you misunderstand Perrone. I dive with him when I get the chance. We dive similar but different rigs for different reasons. We discuss those reasons as a matter of education, but he has never tried to persuade me that my rig is wrong. I wouldn't consider Perrone to be inexperienced either.

A BP/W is a great tool, when used in the correct place, for the right reasons, it is not, however, the answer to every issue, every problem or every situation.

Sadly, there are lots of internet divers that don't seem to understand that.

IMHO a BC or BP/Wing would work well in any recreational dive. A BC would not work well in many technical dives. It comes down to personal preference. Most of my dive days are 4/5 tanks with an occasional 6 tank dive on live-aboards. I dive in all environments, Spring, overhead, Ocean. The biggest sea I dove in was 8ft. I loved my Ranger BC right up until I learned to dive my BP/Wing. Now I really dislike the Ranger. If I didn't teach - it would have been sold a long time ago.

(edited sentence to read better) When an OP asks about gear, the OP needs to read and weigh the responses. I would hope they would go out and rent a variety of gear and then choose.

Summary

BC/Wings don't seem to fit your diving style, great. BC's don't fit into mine. I don't experience the problems you report when you dive a BP/Wing.

There is nothing wrong with having a strong opinion and thats what I see in your post

Cheers

Steve

 

[Patrick]

A BP/W works extremely well underwater (for most uses, but not all), however, it is inherently sensitive to tank weighting. If you look at the range of possible variation, it is around 15 lbs of weight, placed various distances from the wing behind you.

Put an 8 lb negative tank on my back and I will be leaning backwards. No big deal right.. just swim on your back. That works in a pond.. in calm waters...or for a small swim back to a boat, but do a drift dive where you may be sitting in 5 ft seas for 20 minutes or so, with a small possibility they loose you for a bit and it may be longer. Worse yet, what if the boat has to deal with a real emergency for a while, and just leaves you out there?

Different people, different suits effect a BP/W more that a BC.. why? For the same reason that you have better horizontal trim with a BP/W. The air is away from your body, as apposed to wrapped around you.

There are times, where your flotation device needs to be a bit of a life preserver...inexperienced people like PerroneFord assume that what they dive in is what the rest of the world is diving in... and because of that, if everyone does not use the same equipment, there must be something wrong with them.

A BP/W is a great tool, when used in the correct place, for the right reasons, it is not, however, the answer to every issue, every problem or every situation.

Sadly, there are lots of internet divers that don't seem to understand that.

In the past, the BC mfgs and their reps would make arguments similar to yours. Now that most of the major companies are coming out with plate/wing systems, those comments are rarely heard.

I would agree than no one single piece of equipment would be proper in all situations. In some cases, a different size wing, lighter plate, soft harness, might be more approrpriate. However, that same would be true with a BC.

For reasons of center or gravity and being able to ditch weight, I do not put weight on my cylinders.

When I was teaching, it was not uncommon to make long surface swims and be on the surface for extended periods. I used a plate and wing when teaching.

A streamlined wing is not only easier to swim with u/w, it is also much easier on the surface because there is a lot less drag.

I have been diving various mfgs plates/wings for over 12 years in oceans, with various steel tanks and AL, various exposure protection (wet, dry , none) and have never had an issue with being comfortable or relaxed on the surface regardless of conditions.

Changing cylinder sizes or cylinder materials and thermal insulation will have an impact on a BC just as it would a wing.

The only time I have seen anyone have difficulty with a plate/wing is if they have a body type out of normal size. That said, the same person would generally have issues with BCs as well.

I cannot think of a single dive (regardless of conditions or envirnoment, on top or below the surface) where I would prefer to dive a typcial BC over back inflation system.

I should note that I stopped diving a BC many years prior to making wings.

Best regards,

Patrick
OxyCheq
---
http://oxycheq.com

 

[mberman]

I'm a pretty new diver so I'll throw my two cents in. I recently purchased the Halcyon BPW and really like it. I never felt comfortable in the jacket style BCD-- they squeezed me when inflated on the surface yet underwater I always felt like the weight was shifting around on me causing me not to feel very balanced. I really like how the front of the BPW is uncluttered and there aren't as many straps/releases to deal with. Please try one because they are not just for advanced/tech divers!

Merriann