BP/W: I officially don't get it

[Sas]

Hello Ippy,

I'm smiling. I admit that I did write "pseudo tech" etc., on purpose. It really gets people going.

Oh so you like to troll then? You come across just as bad as the people you appear to be attacking for being too pro-BP/W for deliberately using words to annoy people.

There are a lot of people who are into looks and hype in all sports/recreational activities. you have to work through this stuff and then figure out what works for you. As you have noticed some people take this real personally, others have tried and found that the BP isn't for them. Some people it works for and others it doesn't.

I agree with this. But fail to see how it is relevant to a BP/W being a "technical" bit of gear.

I still maintain that the majority of serious divers who do hundreds of dives wear a regular high quality BCD - this has been my observation in both the cold waters of the Pacific NW and the tropical warm waters of the Red Sea.

And how is what the majority of "serious" (btw, what does that mean?) divers wear relevant to someone's individual gear choices?

Whatever works for you is best and don't worry about what others say or do.

Exactly. So why do you take issue with people wearing BP/W to look "pseudo-tech"? Follow your own advice mate

 

[cool_hardware52]

I'm trying to visualise a 26lb wing on a standard English Channel dive wearing my compressed neoprene drysuit with weights (whether in the form of a backplate or lead), lamps, reels, DSMBs, lift bags, etc. I'm afraid I can't.

The answer to being over weighted is never a larger wing, but sadly many assume that a larger wing makes any configuration "safer"

The answer to being over weighted is to cure the condition with proper gear selection.

If the diver has more ballast than required to offset the buoyancy of their suit at their shallow stop with empty or near empty tanks they are over weighted.

For cold water single tank diving the minimum wing capacity is usually a function of the buoyancy of the divers exposure suit.

Same concept for doubles, but the assumptions change a bit.

With a single tank, and an an exposure suit that's not more than 26 lbs positive it's perfectly reasonable to use a 26 lbs wing if the ballast is properly distributed, meaning some on the "rig" and some on the diver.

If you'd like some specific examples I'd be happy to accommodate you.

Tobin

 

[StreetDoctor]

...well, I'm not an 'instructor', and I don't play one on TV...but here's a few tid bits to chew on:

...are you always gonna be diving AL 80's ? ...might you ever be interested in a steel 95, 100 or 120 cu. ft. tank at some point ? ...those are more 'negative'.

To be propery weighted and the most steamlined one would most likely need more than 1 wing. In my case I mostly dive AL80's.

...ever anticipate you might need reserve bouyancy to assist another diver underwater ?

Although I haven't taken the rescue diver course yet (I am enrolled in it) you are taught to use the victims BCD/BPW to provide bouyancy for both you and him.

...ever anticipate the possibility of being caught on a strong 'downdraft' and maybe need the ability to significantly increase your bouyancy to arrest the descent ? (without having to ditch weights and then suffer a self-inflicted runaway ascent.)

Down draft like if I was swimming next to a sinking ship? Actually no I don't ever anticipate that possibility. And if I do I think I would attempt to swim across it much like a rip tide. I fear if you tried to stop yourself from a "strong down draft" using your BCD you'd likely end up in a runaway ascent anyways.

...ever anticipate floating on the surface in high waves/seas and having the extra bouyancy to keep your head high enough out of the water ?

With the use of a properly adjusted crotch strap and my wing fully inflated I'm out of the water almost past my nipples. I've also been in the water with 4-6' swells in Lake Michigan and had no problems keeping my head up.

...I could go on and on and on here but I think you see the point...I hope !

Or do I?

 

[scubafanatic]

To be propery weighted and the most steamlined one would most likely need more than 1 wing. In my case I mostly dive AL80's.

...although you might 'plan' to only use Al 80's, having a wing that gives you the flexibility of opting for a larger capacity tank is a good thing to have, especially if you're into more bottom time, or are running deeper profiles, or are with a group of experienced divers with better gas consumption than you and you can even things up by upping your tank size up a notch and not short change the rest of the group on dive time/location selection.

Although I haven't taken the rescue diver course yet (I am enrolled in it) you are taught to use the victims BCD/BPW to provide bouyancy for both you and him.

...is it wise to assume the 'victim's' BC is functional ? ...perhaps that's why you are going to their assistance in the first place ?

Down draft like if I was swimming next to a sinking ship? Actually no I don't ever anticipate that possibility. And if I do I think I would attempt to swim across it much like a rip tide. I fear if you tried to stop yourself from a "strong down draft" using your BCD you'd likely end up in a runaway ascent anyways.

...once you gain some more dive experience, especially if you ever venture to a more 'mature/experienced' diver location/site, you can easily be confronted by powerful downdrafts....swimming 'across' such a downdraft implies a downdraft is always going to be 'small' in scope, a dangerous assumption......the ocean can push you downward a lot faster than you can attemp to swim across it.......with a larger capacity BC/wing, you can at least have the option of handling the challenges sequentially.......first overcome the uncontrolled downward movement...then 'recover' on the upside by flaring/venting the BC/wing......beats doing the lawn-dart impression to the bottom of the sea.

With the use of a properly adjusted crotch strap and my wing fully inflated I'm out of the water almost past my nipples. I've also been in the water with 4-6' swells in Lake Michigan and had no problems keeping my head up.

...using your figures, I find it hard to believe you're 'nipples above water'...not with a mere 5 lbs 'reserve' bouyancy ( 26 lbs - 21 lbs )....especially if you're in a more tropical local and not diving a 7 mm suit.

 

[StreetDoctor]

...although you might 'plan' to only use Al 80's, having a wing that gives you the flexibility of opting for a larger capacity tank is a good thing to have, especially if you're into more bottom time, or are running deeper profiles, or are with a group of experienced divers with better gas consumption than you and you can even things up by upping your tank size up a notch and not short change the rest of the group on dive time/location selection.

If you are diving a BP/W in efforts to be as streamlined as possible flexibility in wing size isn't such a great thing because you'll have a "big flapping wing", such as the companies that make wings for single and double use. Not only that but a wing too large will taco and not allow you to easily dump air. My air consumption is quite well, with an average SCR of around .65. For the deeper dives I did recently purchase a HP130 which I have about 20 dives with so far. In this case I will use a DSS 30lb wing. If you do the math add an addition -8 on top of the AL80 full buoyancy characteristics. Puts me at -23 without any ditchable weight. I carry 4lbs ditchable with this tank that does make me slightly negative at the beginning of the dive but towards the end when the tank is only -2 it's necessary to maintain safety stops. Of which I might add, all my safety stops are maintained with an empty wing. I also carry a DSMB which *could* be used for buoyancy if completely necessary in an emergency.

...is it wise to assume the 'victim's' BC is functional ? ...perhaps that's why you are going to their assistance in the first place ?

If you're diving with an educated buddy he is not so overweighted that he cannot successfully swim himself to the surface or dump some weight if necessary. A wing failure in itself should not be considered an emergency. I believe there was a recent thread that covered this. Again, overweighting is BAD.

...once you gain some more dive experience, especially if you ever venture to a more 'mature/experienced' diver location/site, you can easily be confronted by powerful downdrafts....swimming 'across' such a downdraft implies a downdraft is always going to be 'small' in scope, a dangerous assumption......the ocean can push you downward a lot faster than you can attemp to swim across it.......with a larger capacity BC/wing, you can at least have the option of handling the challenges sequentially.......first overcome the uncontrolled downward movement...then 'recover' on the upside by flaring/venting the BC/wing......beats doing the lawn-dart impression to the bottom of the sea.

Again I feel I'm being judged because of the number of dives that was under my username. Maybe you need to get past that fact and do some research and speak for your own experiences. I've safely dove some advanced level dive sites in sub 40 degree water with subpar visibility. One of the things I do during dive planning is research in conditions. If I'm ever in a location that has such downdrafts I will be sure to be prepared for them or steer clear of them. Sadly, last time I checked Chicago does not border an ocean where such convection exists. Also as I said before, I can only speak for my diving, which is limited to local quarries, lake michigan, and as of recently bonaire.

...using your figures, I find it hard to believe you're 'nipples above water'...not with a mere 5 lbs 'reserve' bouyancy ( 26 lbs - 21 lbs )....especially if you're in a more tropical local and not diving a 7 mm suit.

Technically at the end of the dive I will be 9lbs positive because of the near empty AL80. Eitherway 5lbs is more than enough. When I'm at the quarry friday testing out my new drysuit I'll be sure to try to remember to take a picture Are we really going to continue this? We dive in different ways. I believe mine is safer and the right way, you believe yours is. Can we agree to disagree? I'll continue to dive the way I do (and a lot of other people do) and if I ever find myself in a situation you described above that I wasn't ready and able to handle, you can say "told you so".

 

[DiverLS]

I've been diving Rec for 20 years, at least 100 dives a year in a BC. Recenty I switched to a BP/W with a stell back plate. I also use a steel HP100 tank. In a 5 mil wet suit I was about 2 lbs negative with no air in the wing. Being a slightly chesty woman, the BP/W is diving at it's best. I now have a very fine BC sitting doing nothing. I know, just my opinion.

 

[fnfalman]

I'm curious but why do jacket BC people always say that a BPW would either flip you on your face or don't float you high enough out of water?

My Dive Rite 30-lbs wing on partial inflate would easily lift my full head out of water. With full inflation, it would take me all the way to the bottom of the neck out of water. And when it's fully inflated like this (totally unnecessary), it doesn't flip me on my face any more than a jacket BC would.

Besides, I like my "pseudo-tech" look. A BPW plus a set of split fins and a multitude of color coordinated gears...more than enough to offend the tech and rec people.

 

[halocline]

Recently took the plunge and bought a Halcyon BP/W set-up after reading all the "sturm and drang" on this board for years. My verdict: it's OK, but barely different (if at all) from a basic, pedestrian BC.

Give me good diving conditions and interesting marine life and, frankly, I couldn't care less about equipment (providing it's safe, of course).

So, I don't get it. Why don't people on this board care more about what they're seeing underwater instead of worrying about what they're wearing?

Interesting, this is one of the few gear issues that to me actually does make a huge difference in diving. I'm going to assume you got a steel plate; if so, keep trying it for a while then go back to a jacket BC. I bet you notice a big difference.

 

[scubadiver888]

To be propery weighted and the most steamlined one would most likely need more than 1 wing. In my case I mostly dive AL80's.

You can have a mix and match BP/W system. Some people have different size tanks and different exposure suits. For this reason, they will have different backplates and wings.

Although I haven't taken the rescue diver course yet (I am enrolled in it) you are taught to use the victims BCD/BPW to provide bouyancy for both you and him.

Actually, there is one scenario you would have to use your own equipment to get the victim to the surface. If the victim ran out of air there would be no way to inflate their BC. You would have to bring the victim to the surface with your BC and manually inflate their BC once you got there. Not as hard as you might imagine if you drop their weights before you bring them up.

Down draft like if I was swimming next to a sinking ship? Actually no I don't ever anticipate that possibility. And if I do I think I would attempt to swim across it much like a rip tide. I fear if you tried to stop yourself from a "strong down draft" using your BCD you'd likely end up in a runaway ascent anyways.

There is a place near were I dive that has a VERY strong down current. If you get caught in this it can quickly pull you down to 200'. Most divers who do this drift dive are skilled enough not to get pulled down but I would imagine a slight miscalculation and having a BC with some serious lift would be appreciated.

If I had to choose between getting sucked down to 200' and spit out into the busy shipping channels or a run away ascent, I'd go for the runaway ascent. Mind you, at my present skill level I select option C, i.e. don't go diving there.

 

[Smoochy]

Yawn.... I thought this bickering got old a few years ago...

While you may not be interested in being a GUE or "DIR" diver, the reasoning behind the equipment choices still makes a valid point.... I'm not allowed to post a link because I do not have 5 posts yet but if you go to the GUE website and go down to their Equipment Config page, it does explain the benefits (from their point of view, of course ) of each piece of equipment. It was understanding those points and trying one out that made me purchase my setup.

I use my Halcyon BP/W because it's comfortable. Do I believe it's the best out there FOR ME? Yes, that's why I got it. Do I have some thoughts on why a vest/"jacket" style BC is inferior? Yes. Mainly... I like that everything on a BP/W with a Hog setup has it's place. You can go to any diver that follows this same practice and know exactly where their gear is. Perhaps that is more of a DIR debate however....

Why I think it's more comfortable, and better: The crotch strap keeps it from ever coming away from your shoulders... that is if you aren't horizontal as you should be. There is less restricting padding around you. Less padding means less weight to have to carry, less weight means you can swim up your setup in an emergency situation. It's cheaper to fix... a replacement wing or bladder is far cheaper than a new BC of good or better quality. A new webbing is what? $15 max? Want to dive doubles?? Just go get another wing for once again, HALF of the cost of a traditional BC. Plus, I generally don't even know my SS BP is there.

If you purchased a BP/W without every trying it, and never read up on WHY it's "superior" according to some, than it's your own fault for purchasing it and not liking it.