BP/W banned in DM Course

[Divedoggie]

Its a logical and good assumption. Without coming across as being defensive; what would a person using BP/W needs to fuss about when its was already correctly sized? You set it up, you don it an you are ready to go. No further adjustment is needed. Besides, my instructor, due to his former vocation, would have no problem speaking is mind, albeit in a positive manner of delivery.

The fussing example was intended to illustrate the Instructor's perspective on training students in an introductory/Open Water scenario. The Instructor's focus is and should be primarily on the new OW students. If there is a distraction (as determined by the Instructor), he may feel that he needs to correct that distraction before continuing.

To step away from the argument for a second, I honestly don't see how the DMC wearing a BP/W long hose is a distraction...a rebreather, yes, but BP/W, no. So, I agree with the original premise: It's silly to disallow the usage of a specific gear package and configuration. Especially a kit that is as proven and simple as a BP/W/long hose. The DMC is only observing the class. He is not allowed to be demonstrating don/doff, and he still has an inflator hanging over the left shoulder...hopefully the students will emulate the use of said inflator with their buoyancy skills...

A recent discussion with my PADI regional rep was enlightening in that he encouraged me to use different gear configurations including doubles, but excluding rebreathers. As long as standards are met and and that I don't require added standards, I was also encouraged to teach and to include work on buoyancy, horizontal trim, different finning techniques, solid gas management and planning, etc., based on how much time my students and I were willing to commit.

So, the equipment choice and configuration issue boils down to shop policy and each individual Instructor's preferences for conducting their classes.

But, whether the Instructor is biased/prejudiced/ignorant, or shop owner put his foot down about using specific equipment, or the 7 foot hose turned into a snake and bit someone on the a$$, in the end, the Instructor needs to feel comfortable and in control while teaching his class, and the DMC needs to respect that.

My spin in this thread has been, as a DMC, to quietly respect the Instructor's wishes until an appropriate time when a good hearty discussion on his reasoning can take place. A DM will need to assist different Instructors and to adapt to their quirks. Maybe there are some Instructors who the DM will not want to work with. There are certainly some DMs who I don't want to work with! Some DM traits learned during internship are adaptability, and being able to anticipate class, student, and Instructor needs. Internal focus, being egocentric is part of being a good diver. It enables you to listen to your body, pay attention to dive plan, gas plan, environment, depth, time, and so on. A DM starts learning how to monitor everyone else in addition to himself. That is sometimes a tough transition. The lesson that the DMC can learn from the Instructor's insistence on specific gear is adaptability, and developing the ability to put others before him, even if it is a bit unagreeable.


I teach in my shop owner's pool, and I respect his wishes to use gear similar to the student's gear and that is sold in the shop. The day I own my own training facility, I will wear whatever I please!

When in Open Water, the DMs, DMCs, other Instructor's and I wear the gear that we are comfortable with and which best suits the environment. That gear may or may not be the same as we used in the pool. It depends on the environment and the individual.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Well, I don't know about other agencies, but in the PADI system, there is no demonstration of skills in OW, only in the pool.

True. When I talk about OW above I am talking about the Open Water course, and not the open water dives that are part of the open water course. But even in the OW part of the course as part of the dive briefing I'll frequently find myself going through the motions of what I expect from the students. For example, "miming" taking off the BCD, While not a proper demonstration, it still tends to be focused on the gear they are wearing.

 

[DBailey]

The DMC is only observing the class.

As part of his class, the DMC is only observing the class. Don't forget that the DMC is a paying customer as well.

Would you turn away Rescue Diver student for showing up in a BP/W? Why turn away the DMC for the same reason?

 

[The Chairman]

As part of his class, the DMC is only observing the class. Don't forget that the DMC is a paying customer as well.

That depends entirely on the agency. In my classes I would expect a DMC to learn how to do presentations to the point of being the primary presenter when asked.

 

[DBailey]

That depends entirely on the agency. In my classes I would expect a DMC to learn how to do presentations to the point of being the primary presenter when asked.

Good point. From the liabilty end of things, I don't want my DMC doing anything that could be thought of as "teaching" until he has the proper liability insurance.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Good point. From the liabilty end of things, I don't want my DMC doing anything that could be thought of as "teaching" until he has the proper liability insurance.

Depends on how you look at it. I encourage participation in class, and at times I learn something from a student's point of view that I might not have considered otherwise. From a certain perspective, that's "teaching".

I don't ask DMCs to do presentations in a class that they're auditing ... I do expect them to speak up if they have something to contribute.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[The Chairman]

Good point. From the liabilty end of things, I don't want my DMC doing anything that could be thought of as "teaching" until he has the proper liability insurance.

I don't share those thoughts. They can't be in a supervisory position until they have insurance, but demonstrating a skill is not a liability.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Agree with Pete on that. In our system not only will a DM or DMC demo skills as I explain them or have explained them, but they will also deliver pool side lectures, classroom lectures, and oversee the swimming, snorkeling, and skin diving portions under the instructors supervision. In fact during my crossover I conducted a few snorkeling and skin diving session while the instructor was en route. DMC's learn to teach by teaching. Once they have prepared and delivered a lecture to me and had it critiqued the next step is to deliver it to an actual class with me sitting in. Once they are DM's they are expected to be able to deliver any lecture at any time.

This was for my YMCA/NAUI crossover. I could have went either way but chose the Y and now SEI and CMAS.

 

[SubMariner]

I can see your point ... but expressing your disagreement in front of students really wouldn't be appropriate. You do as asked, and discuss it afterward. If you're really unhappy, ask for some recompense for the expense of the boat trip, given that you were acting not as diver, but as crew. But you don't do it in front of students.

A big part of taking a DM class is learning how to conduct yourself as a professional. Disagreeing with an instructor's judgment in front of students would raise a big red flag with me ... however legitimate you feel your complaint may be.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

THANK YOU, Bob. Hopefully your elaboration helps clarify the issue.

 

[SubMariner]

I am a DM and I am quite professional. Disagreeing in front of customers wouldn't be my first choice, but if you are on a boat, possibly small, and the instructor says - hey you sit this one out. I know you are doing this because you like diving and want to dive and nevermind that you paid for this course, gave up your day to come out here, and possibly paid boat fees too, but how about you supervise from the surface and stay out of the water.

It seems the only opportunity to express your disagreement with this instructor would be on the boat in front of the students. Shame on the instructor for springing this on the DMC so late. If they weren't going to be diving, this should have been discussed before they got on the boat and got all the way to the dive site.

I'd be more likely to agree if this were a DM the instructor hired. But again it's a DMC paying to be there. If they are unhappy with what is going on they can and should say something about it. They have as much a right to question what their instructor is doung as the other students there lets not forget the DMC us a student. I doubt anyone advocating the DMC needs to shut up and take it would tell an ow student to be quiet and do whatever their instructor says. Ideally the DMC would find a tactful way to deal with the issue, but they need to say something if they are not happy with how their course/mentoring is being done.

And, if the instructor has done such a poor job managing their expectations that there is no other way to address the issue than right in front of the students, then they shouldnt be surprised at the outcome.

In such a situation the instructor is more to blame than the DMC. At least that's my opinion.

First & foremost, you are making assumptions based on pure speculation on an incident where you were not present. And you are wrong on all counts!

The scenario was not as you envisioned, especially regarding things "being sprung" on the DMC without any advanced warning; what he did and did not pay for that weekend; chain of command/organization of multilevel dive training at a dive site; and professional behaviour in front of students.

Rather than keep rehashing the obvious with you to the detriment of this thread, I will simply end the public discussion here.