Big dilemma, should i sell my poseidon rig??

[Snowbear]

selling em already. as to my next question, would the black pearl mate well with the ds4/atx50? price not being a factor or would you still get two sets of ds4/atx50's?

You're talking about doubles, right??
If so, yes, you can mix~n~match Apeks first and second stage regs. In my first hand experience, I've used both DS4 and ATX200 first stages mixed with various combos of ATX200, ATX50, ATX40 and TX40 second stages... all in various combos with doubles and decos... and until I stumbled upon yet another good online deak for a used reg, I used the DST 11: ) with the TX40 for a deco reg. Now the DST/TX40 is for sale, since the DST is not really DIR and I don't like the bulkiness of the TX40.

Again, in my experience, all of the ATX regs breath the same. At all of the depths I've breathed them. I have not had any more or less problems with any of the models over any others. I find them all identical in ease of rebuid and I like that the parts kits for all the first stages and all the second stages are the same.

Besides less bulkiness, I like the ATX models over the TX for the adjustible venturi. As for the complaints of "bubble distribution" because of the smaller exhaust ports on the ATX models, that truly does not bother me in the least.... maybe it's just 'cause I'm used to it ??

 

[padiscubapro]

You may have a point about the newest designs - so far as I know, there is only one shop in the seven county metro-Chicago area that still sells Poseidens and I don't see a lot of them on the bench. As to my knowing "diddly", that is a subjective term that usually carries the added meaning, "I'm pissed off you dumped on my favorite..." and difficult to respond to in a meaningful manner.

A couple of the shops that I've done service work for used to carry them, but getting parts is extremely difficult, perhaps part of the "counterfeit" issue you raised. I suppose I see 20 or 30 units a year, which isn't all that many. The last service manual I got from Poseiden is dated 2003, so I'm not waayyy out of date, however.

Let's see, servicing any first involves:

• Breaking down the regulator,
• Disassembling and sorting the sub-parts (Some get the acid bath, some get a water-only bath, some get tossed.),
• Cleaning, disinfecting and rinsing the parts,
• Inspecting the new and old parts,
• Lubricating the new parts,
• Re-assembling the sub-parts,
• Re-assembling the regulator,
• Testing and adjusting the regulator.

Less than ten minutes for all this is very impressive, even if you're cutting some non-essential corners and I'd pay money to see it done in five. There might even be a market for a training video...

At any rate, Peace. Like I said, they're great performers (especially at depth, especially in cold water), though expensive to buy, expensive to maintain and (as it relates to this forum) not suitable due to design "issues." If you're buying them at a discount, have access to parts and are working on them yourself, as it would seem you are doing, your perspective would be substantially different than the average diver.

The last distributor in the us (before viking took it over) was not selling original replacement parts.. it often took several seats to get it right (and alot of upset scuba shops).. The older 1st stages once lined up were great but it took someone familiar with the regs to service them not a tech who saw them on occasion.. In terms of overhaul time, I can do an older poseidon 1st somewhere between the time it takes me to do an APEKS 1st (shorter) and a Scubabpro mk20/25 (longer)..

Anyone who knows regs can service the new 1st stages without any manual at all.. Parts are readily available these days through viking.. I have access to parts from several sources, so for me its not a big deal... If the shop the diver got his reg from services them regularly there should be no issues at all.. if you look at the design of the new 1st stage, there are very few parts to wear..

The second stages aren't that bad but again you need to work on them.. the cyclons/thors are pretty easy to set up, the odin/jetstream is harder (but I dont find it any hard than other regs that use a balance chamber in the second stage), the tritons were terrible... Posidon has totally redesigned them, and an authorized delaer is supposed to send them back to poseidon for a factory replacement.. The xtreme seconds are very easy to adjust..

I would use an APEKS reg over most other regs out there except a poseidon..

As to the one person that wondered why RB divers see s difference in IP stability.. I'll explain.. the reg used on the oxygen side typically needs to have a much lower IP to make the solenoid function reliably, and even when fired only a small amount of gas is allowed to pass so there is no constant flowing of gas to control the ip.. most RB divers need to have the oxygen regs work in the 7-7.5 bar range (~101 - 109 psi)

On our diluent side the only time we pull gas is on descent to make up the volume of the breathing bags or to adjust buoyancy thats it.. so for long periods of time no gas is added, what you do end up seeing is that if a bailout second stage is added you see occasional "burps", if an OPV is fitted to the 1st (no second stage added) it usually lets go.. for those who dont have a second or am OPV attached a burst hose is usually the outcome (I have seen this)
This is also why part of normal maintainance on our RBs is to constantly evaluate out reg IPS (some manufacturers like ap valves - inspiration rebreaters) supply an IP guage with their units (they use apeks regs)..

The stainless stell ball design in the 1st stage virtually eliminates the possiblity of a HP seta failure, an the normal ip is 8.5 bar (~125 psi)

The extreme 2nd stage can be taken apart and cleaned without tools.. but it is still an upstream design,, a properly tuned 2nd will not freeflow with an "empty" tank..

for anyone using oxygen, their oxygen version is one of the only regs approved for oxygen service..

 

[MonkSeal]

... since the DST is not really DIR ...

Why? Because of the swivel? But isn't swivel recomended for deco/stage tanks to alow better routing both in positions when 2nd stage is stored and when it's breathed from?

 

[Soggy]

for anyone using oxygen, their oxygen version is one of the only regs approved for oxygen service..

by whom?

 

[jagfish]

Regarding adaptor use...

I read a few posts here about the added failure point of using adaptor and the use of different hoses than the team makes hoses non-interchangeable.

For me, this is an interesting point. I use DS4 first stages (3/8" primary port) while others I dive with use DST, ATX100 or 200. These all featrue 1/2" primary ports. Depending on routing and port choice, this could mean that you will have to use port adaptors or have mixed hoses in your team...

I have personally seen many "DIR" divers in GUE courses and diving with port adaptors. I've found the adaptors are always good to have around. When dealing with Apeks, one never knows when you will have to use the 1/2 inch port for something other than the primary to get the routing right (on left post for example). Sometimes ou can just plug the 1/2" and work around it, but sometimes I have not been able to...

 

[RTodd]

Regarding adaptor use...

I read a few posts here about the added failure point of using adaptor and the use of different hoses than the team makes hoses non-interchangeable.

For me, this is an interesting point. I use DS4 first stages (3/8" primary port) while others I dive with use DST, ATX100 or 200. These all featrue 1/2" primary ports. Depending on routing and port choice, this could mean that you will have to use port adaptors or have mixed hoses in your team...

I have personally seen many "DIR" divers in GUE courses and diving with port adaptors. I've found the adaptors are always good to have around. When dealing with Apeks, one never knows when you will have to use the 1/2 inch port for something other than the primary to get the routing right (on left post for example). Sometimes ou can just plug the 1/2" and work around it, but sometimes I have not been able to...

That is one of the reasons why the DS4s, without the silly port, work better. Another one of the reasons we use the DS4s is because you never really need to overhaul them. I have a "test" set that I am purposely abusing to see how long it lasts going on five years now.

Swivels are used for stages only to improve the routing. But, piston designs work better for stages rather than diaphragm since you will eventually flood them and pistons recover better from that.

For Apex and SP regs tune the IP down to around 120. They hold up better and the higher IP is not necessary. I suspect this would work on just about any reg, but I don't have much experience with the other brands. At least in the past, you could not do this with the Poseidons and it was one of the many reasons they were problematic.

As for the rebreather guys complaining the Apex don't hold up, this sounds like justification for a personal reg preference to me. Our back gas regs will go for hours without being touched when we are on stages without a hickup.

 

[docmartin]

in fact my dir instructor has a habit of dissasembling his regs and he mentioned that all models above the atx100 have been tinkered with by aqualung and that the internal components are the same. he already confirmed this with several of the european gue instructors.

so its back to the atx100/ atx40 for secondary for me. second set will be a ds4

tinkered with by aqualung? not sure what that means given that the internal components are indeed essentially the same. also, that would not necessarily be a bad thing given that aqualung makes some of the best breathing regs.
as far as your choices: i would recommend the atx 50 over the atx 40. the ability to adjust inhalation resistance with an external knob sometimes comes in handy when you need to detune your reg to avoid freeflow.
regarding the mixing of two different sets of apeks regs: sure it can be done. i am not sure how DIR feels about using two first stages with different port sizes on the same rig. seems to go against the standardization creed. and since you seem to care, it also does not look good. given that you save a bundle by dropping the black pearl idea and since money seems to be a secondary consideration anyway just get 2 atx100s if you like them. personally, i would get 2 DS4s with atx 50 seconds. i was not that smart when i bought my rig and went for 2 atx200s. unnecessary extra expense over the ds4s. but they do look nice.

 

[docmartin]

But, piston designs work better for stages rather than diaphragm since you will eventually flood them and pistons recover better from that.

that's an interesting statement that i did not hear before. i have not really used stage bottles in my diving just a pony here and there. why do you say that you will eventually flood them?

 

[RTodd]

that's an interesting statement that i did not hear before. i have not really used stage bottles in my diving just a pony here and there. why do you say that you will eventually flood them?

Stages/ deco bottles are turned off when not in use. The purge can be accidently hit and they can loose pressure for a number of reasons. Also, if one stage reg goes bad, you simply switch them under water with a working one. Most of the minor leaks just let a little water in and the piston regs are fine. However, I have finished dives with pressure gauges full of water, etc. At this point, pretty much any reg is going to need an overhaul (and a new gauge), but the piston one will generally deal with the abuse better while you need it since a large part of a piston reg is already designed to get wet whereas diaphragm regs are not. The flip side is this is why, IMHO, diapphragms regs make better back gas regs.

Now, go ditch the useless pony bottle.

 

[MonkSeal]

But, piston designs work better for stages rather than diaphragm since you will eventually flood them and pistons recover better from that.

Yes, I'm aware of that fact. I use Scubapro Mk2 for deco tank but I plan to change it. However, I have better asccess to Apks spare parts. What would you recommend?