Best type of Pony Tank setup?

[Scott M]

I have a few questions (observations) regarding this Pony discussion.

The three main things I would like to examine are.

Planning instead of a pony, OK I can see the value in that and would agree, every dive should be planned to the fullest extent "possible". However, it is impossible to plan for every possible event. If you could there would no use for half the gear we carry now would there? If it was possible to plan for every eventuality Darwin and Murphy could well go on a perminent vacation.

Buddy instead of a pony, OK I agree with a good buddy. But can you actually "guarantee" they will always be there? Can you guarantee they will always react correctly, can you guarantee you will always react correctly? Obviously in a perfect world we would all have the perfect buddy and be the perfect buddy at all times but the last time I checked the world is far from perfect.

Pony will not get you to the surface safely. I see the SAC rates flying the math etc, ya it all adds up and it all makes since but in a situation where it hits the fan and you head for the surface what would you give for just one more breath? To heck with elavated this and elavated that, just one more breath. What would you give?????

I know there are a million stories and examples of how each of the above could be explained to make sense. I say for each of those there is another example that can tear down the arguement. How can having a bail out bottle possibly be so bad?

I would like to add that it is my belief that any piece of gear carried should be done in such a way as to not create anymore of an entanglement hazard and that any piece of gear we carry should be practiced with regularly for it to be usefull.

OK let me have it.

 

[Boogie711]

"Planning instead of a pony, OK I can see the value in that and would agree, every dive should be planned to the fullest extent "possible". However, it is impossible to plan for every possible event. If you could there would no use for half the gear we carry now would there? If it was possible to plan for every eventuality Darwin and Murphy could well go on a perminent vacation.

Buddy instead of a pony, OK I agree with a good buddy. But can you actually "guarantee" they will always be there? Can you guarantee they will always react correctly, can you guarantee you will always react correctly?"
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I agree you can't plan on every contingency. Which is why I bring a buddy. And the beauty of carrying my backup on my buddy's back is that I can guarantee that it works - which you can't do with a pony bottle.

You're advocating carrying a piece of equipment to remedy a training shortfall. I don't believe any equipment will make up for bad training.

I dive as a team, I don't dive solo.

 

[Scott M]

"Planning instead of a pony, OK I can see the value in that and would agree, every dive should be planned to the fullest extent "possible". However, it is impossible to plan for every possible event. If you could there would no use for half the gear we carry now would there? If it was possible to plan for every eventuality Darwin and Murphy could well go on a perminent vacation.

Buddy instead of a pony, OK I agree with a good buddy. But can you actually "guarantee" they will always be there? Can you guarantee they will always react correctly, can you guarantee you will always react correctly? "

I agree you can't plan on every contingency. Which is why I bring a buddy. And the beauty of carrying my backup on my buddy's back is that I can guarantee that it works - which you can't do with a pony bottle.

I dive as a team, I don't dive solo.

I agree with the value of a buddy and having there air for back-up, but still how would carrying a pony hurt you in any way? You still can use your buddy as a source for an OOA BUT what if they aren't there? Good buddy or not it can happen.

I realise there has to be a limit to what can be carried I just do not see how a pony is outside of that realm.

 

[Scott M]

You're advocating carrying a piece of equipment to remedy a training shortfall. I don't believe any equipment will make up for bad training.

How would this relate to bad training? You are out of air for whatever reason, many things canhappen, your buddy panics, is eaten by a shark, is seperated by unforseen reasons, is to narced to realize you are having a problem, the place is all silted up and you seperate. How can having a pony hurt?

 

[Boogie711]

Scott - have you read this thread? Seriously, I'm not trying to be an ass - I'm just asking if you've read the entire thread.

You ask "How does a Pony hurt you in any way?"

Courtesy of Uncle Pug:

1) Pony bottles add an extra piece of equipment to the diver's kit that needs to be fastidiously maintained to remain optimally functional.

2) Pony bottles add an extra training element as divers should be completely familiar with pony bottle carrying, deployment and usage as well as proper gas management.

3) Pony bottles need to be used frequently so that the diver remains proficient in deployment and use.

4) Pony bottles add an extra element of task loading in an emergency in that they require attention for deployment and usage.

5) Pony bottles if front mounted involve all of the above plus pose extra points of entaglement/snagging.

6) Pony bottles if back mounted pose extra points of entanglement/snagging that cannot always be undone successfully without help.

7) Pony bottles if back mounted valve up must be turned on prior to the dive and left on during the dive. It is possible for a leak or free flowing pony reg to empty or partially deplete the pony bottle.

8) Pony Bottles if back mounted do not allow confirmation of supply without the addition of an extra spg to the kit.

9) Pony bottles if back mounted valve down can be turned on when needed but the air supply cannot be confirmed unless an extra spg is added to the kit.

10) Pony bottles if relied upon as bailout can influence divers to make poor choices and extend dives beyond prudence or to even ignore gas planning altogether and simply rely upon the pony.

11) Pony bottles require additional set up steps that can provide opportunity for mistakes to be made... ie they complicate the rig.

12) Pony bottles can affect trim and require additional weighting adjustments, add drag and cause increased air consumption.

13) Pony bottles involve more cost not only for initial purchase but also for regulator maint. and tank vips/hydros.

 

[Scott M]

Scott - have you read this thread? Seriously, I'm not trying to be an ass - I'm just asking if you've read the entire thread.

I still do not see how it can hurt, if as I stated in my first thread it is properly mounted and trained with. Which I believe answers most of Pugs points. P.S. I do not think your being an ass at all as a matter of fact I brought up the points I did to try an understand them better and welcome such debate.

You ask "How does a Pony hurt you in any way?"

Courtesy of Uncle Pug:

1) Pony bottles add an extra piece of equipment to the diver's kit that needs to be fastidiously maintained to remain optimally functional.

2) Pony bottles add an extra training element as divers should be completely familiar with pony bottle carrying, deployment and usage as well as proper gas management.

3) Pony bottles need to be used frequently so that the diver remains proficient in deployment and use.

4) Pony bottles add an extra element of task loading in an emergency in that they require attention for deployment and usage.

I believe I answered this in saying I believe in proper training in it's use for it to be of any value.

5) Pony bottles if front mounted involve all of the above plus pose extra points of entaglement/snagging.

6) Pony bottles if back mounted pose extra points of entanglement/snagging that cannot always be undone successfully without help
7) Pony bottles if back mounted valve up must be turned on prior to the dive and left on during the dive. It is possible for a leak or free flowing pony reg to empty or partially deplete the pony bottle.

I believe there is a way to mount a pony with out it being an entanglement problem. The way I would I do it is. On my BC there is an area just behind my left back and the wing that has enough space to have a bag made that would attach to my BC with two small d-rings (already there). It would be tucked nice and neatly out of the way. I would mount the pony upside down with the opening of the bag just at the reach of my left hand with the reg hose tucked into the bag and the 2nd stage outside of the opening of the bag. When needed I wouldlsimply have to reach down and pull the reg out for use. With the bottom of the bag at hands level you could easily turn it on. Depending on wether your from the camp that pressurizes then turns off or just leaves it on.

8) Pony Bottles if back mounted do not allow confirmation of supply without the addition of an extra spg to the kit.

9) Pony bottles if back mounted valve down can be turned on when needed but the air supply cannot be confirmed unless an extra spg is added to the kit.

You would of course have to be dilegent about making the pony is always full, if it is pressureized then shut off this really is a none issue.

10) Pony bottles if relied upon as bailout can influence divers to make poor choices and extend dives beyond prudence or to even ignore gas planning altogether and simply rely upon the pony.

As I said it would have to be properly practiced with and used as a bailout only.

11) Pony bottles require additional set up steps that can provide opportunity for mistakes to be made... ie they complicate the rig.

At a point where a pony would be needed (last ditch bail out) there more than likely already have been a lot of mistakes made. Having a totally redundent air supply can not make things worse than they already are.

2) Pony bottles can affect trim and require additional weighting adjustments, add drag and cause increased air consumption.

13) Pony bottles involve more cost not only for initial purchase but also for regulator maint. and tank vips/hydros.

Lets just agree that these two things can be pretty easy to overcome.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Boogie,

I have the utmost respect for the inimitable Uncle Pug, and I tend to agree with your concept regarding the importance of diving as a team.

[You do realize that like other great debates, e.g. Ford versus Chevy, 9mm v. .45, etc. this debate has no conclusive ending, right? Only counter-arguments which are defended with varying degrees of rationality? In the end we will likely agree to disagree...]

My entire career has been focused on teams, often in military and law enforcement circles. Teams are the most organized and efficient means of ensuring that any objective is accomplished safely. The problem is, occasionally team members go down for one reason or another. Often they do so under circumstances that are not specifically predictable. Yet its at least plausible that they could, in fact, go down. Which is why you spread load the ammunition, the explosives, the gas, or whatever else you need to complete the mission among all members of the team.

I practice team-diving nearly exclusively. But I've been on a wreck in a strong current hand-over-handing it up the rail back to the anchor line when my buddy (behind me) was blown off the wreck. I realized this when I saw his light. I went after him. But we separated in the low vis, in the open ocean. We never found each other. We blew bags and ascended separately. Sometimes things occur that preclude the best laid plans. If these things are foreseeable, however, then contingency plans can be made.

IMO, pony bottles have a place. They are one tool in a toolbox. If you disagree, fine. I can live with that.

Diving with a buddy is a wonderful theoretical concept, so long as you realize that reality occasionally takes desperate advantage of wonderful theoretical concepts.

Doc

 

[Boogie711]

[You do realize that like other great debates, e.g. Ford versus Chevy, 9mm v. .45, etc. this debate has no conclusive ending, right? Only counter-arguments which are defended with varying degrees of rationality? In the end we will likely agree to disagree...]

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Well spoken. My points have been made. Counterpoints have been offered, and this will continue ad nauseum - or to quote the inimitable Karl_in_Calif - ad hominem.

I don't want anyone to think I'm backing 'down from a fight' or anything - I just don't know where this is going to get us at this stage of the game. Safe Diving.

 

[Scott M]

Well spoken. My points have been made. Counterpoints have been offered, and this will continue ad nauseum - or to quote the inimitable Karl_in_Calif - ad hominem.

I don't want anyone to think I'm backing 'down from a fight' or anything - I just don't know where this is going to get us at this stage of the game. Safe Diving.

LOL, Chicken, I'm kidding of course.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Big-t-2538]

IMO, pony bottles have a place. They are one tool in a toolbox. If you disagree, fine. I can live with that.

Doc -

I agree ponys have a place....but I do not agree that they have a place in team diving. I do not believe that the benefit (extra gas) of a pony outweighs the risk (task loading, constant practice, entanglement issues, maintenance, etc) on a team dive. Yes, I understand teams do break down...but in that event, the dive is over, and we're on our way to the surface, much like in your example. Others see it differently.

I believe many points have been made for and against ponys in this thread...I will continue to subscribe to my philosiphy...I just wanted to point out my opinions regarding ponys.