Best form for the hover position? (aka Frog kick pose)

[MichaelMc]

For staying still, horizontally, mid water, what is the best form of that position? The position I have in mind is typically called the skydiver or frog kick position. In particular, how far up should the knees be bent to give the easiest control of body position. There are some knee angles people typically mention for frog pose. I'm not sure if those are meant fairly literally or as a short hand form of description.

A bit more on reasons, is the leg position/angle, while still, based on:
1) giving knees the widest range of adjustment to diver center of mass,
2) shifting resting mass forward to align with center of buoyancy, or
3) being best for starting a new frog/reverse/helicopter kick?
Assuming those might be different, and 1 and 2 are very similar.

The horizontal, mid water, not touching anything, jack of all uses, but not doing anything currently, position.

I created a trim diagram recently for students and realized how I drew the legs may be starting them off wrong. I posted in the basic forum as trim and how to 'sit'/hang in the water seems basic, but up to the mods.

Thanks,
Michael
(I assist in teaching post OW students at university, for scientific diving.)
Edit: v3 for clarity...

 

[tbone1004]

best resting position is the "skydiver" position which is back arched, and knees at 90* or sometimes less. That will allow them to have their hands available for working and move the center of buoyancy closet to their nipple line. Anything other than that position will result in knees going down

 

[tursiops]

Sorry, but I've read your post three times and do not understand your points or your questions, nor what the title has to do with the post. Can you clarify?

 

[MaxBottomtime]

 

[tursiops]

best resting position is the "skydiver" position which is back arched, and knees at 90* or sometimes less. That will allow them to have their hands available for working and move the center of buoyancy closet to their nipple line. Anything other than that position will result in knees going down

Knees 90 deg relative to what?

 

[cneal]

On the days your trim is perfect you can stop and rest in any position, on your side, flat on your stomach, even standing on your head.

 

[MichaelMc]

best resting position is the "skydiver" position which is back arched, and knees at 90* or sometimes less. That will allow them to have their hands available for working and move the center of buoyancy closet to their nipple line. Anything other than that position will result in knees going down

Thanks.

Sorry, but I've read your post three times and do not understand your points or your questions, nor what the title has to do with the post. Can you clarify?

Take two above...
I believe tbone is referring to hip->knee-> foot angle. Generally like the video above.
Or likely better the horizontal plane to knee to ankle angle.

Thanks. That is a great video we may use, thought they never really just stop. The SMB deploy videos are good resting clips, but often from the front. There are some leg skulling videos I'll grab some and insert so others do not feel the need. These get more focused on technical level skill at hovering.
Edit: here are some? At time 1:56
Edit: University of Miami's Final exam video deserves mention for new dives.
I'd say divers at times :25, :35, :45 have close leg position.

 

[tbone1004]

Knees 90 deg relative to what?

thigh-calf should be at 90* or less if you need to decrease the moment arm.

@MichaelMc I do not see that as technical level skill at hovering. We expect that from our OW students, and mandate it at the "scuba 2" or AOW/Rescue level students. It is imperative for all of the scientific divers to do it as well so they can actually work on the bottom without propping themselves against something

 

[MichaelMc]

thigh-calf should be at 90* or less if you need to decrease the moment arm.

@MichaelMc I do not see that as technical level skill at hovering. We expect that from our OW students, and mandate it at the "scuba 2" or AOW/Rescue level students. It is imperative for all of the scientific divers to do it as well so they can actually work on the bottom without propping themselves against something

No argument on MaxBottomtime's video. Or for scientific divers! I did not want to scare away any starting recreation divers reading this later from understanding that this is a posture they can use.

On the moment arm of your legs center of mass, if you can shift lead to get your center of mass where ever you want it, where would you then decide to put your legs? I'm not arguing for fixing trim by moving mass before fixing posture. Just asking after learning posture and adjusting gear, what posture is optimal. Not what posture might you need to use to get level if your mass distribution is not cooperating.

 

[tbone1004]

@MichaelMc in backmount especially, I am a FIRM advocate that there is very little actually needed in terms of moving lead around and that just about everything can be done with proper body position.
I have this opinion, because we teach in SS backplates from day 1 which means no lead for any of them. We have yet to have one that couldn't trim out in the rigs *which are ~30lb lift, AL80's, Halcyon backplates with SS STA's*. Outside of skill demos, I have yet to need a weight belt with a SS backplate. That includes all exposure up to drysuit because I use steel tanks whenever possible. Due to that, I don't wear any lead so I can't move it anywhere, neither do any of my dive buddies. Trim has never been an issue because you learn to position your body in such a way that you can "deal with it" and because you can move your feet around quite easily compared to lead, and the effect of moving them is much more due to the moment arm, the key is to get people in the right body position before you mess around with adding lead because of a perceived problem.

Easy solution for new students, stick some mirrors in the pool. They know what they "should" look like, and the mirrors give instant feedback so they can see what they look like and it will resolve itself quite quickly