Bahamas: Missing Female Diver

[Web Monkey]

I don't say the DM was blameless but I can also see where the DM would be surprised at the response of being "brushed off" and have a moment!

The next time I indicate to my buddy that we should or shouldn't do something and don't get immediate compliance maybe I should hop on his tank and force him to the surface?

If the dive plan is for a relatively shallow dive and you find your buddy heading off to 170'+, you wouldn't be much of a buddy if you didn't.

Terry

 

[CDNScubaMoose]

On a recent "chamber dive", I asked the attendent about some of the more interesting experiences he has had and the most interesting he had was when he took a group of police officers (from a dive team) to 135'. Apparently the group was made up almost exclusively of "Type A" personalities and under the effect of narcosis these personalities came out in full force and although things didn't get to a physical altercation state ... there was some raised voices and a lot of "opinions" of each other shared.

Based on this information, I could easily see the victims reported personality traits being a little more hightened at depth with the effect of narcosis and having experienced narcosis myself at shallower depths then I expected ... I can easily see the DM have a *** moment and not knowing how to respond until it was too late. IMHO, this is why all certified divers must be ultimately responsible for themselves and I have now started to encourage all divers to do a chamber dive so they can get a first hand experience of what narcosis can do and how early it can start to happen.

 

[ItsBruce]

I'm now at the point where trying to decide in my own mind if, based on what information we currently have, the DM "blew it" just makes my head hurt.

Did the DM miss the critical moment? Probably. Was that negligent? At the moment, I'm undecided.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

If the dive plan is for a relatively shallow dive and you find your buddy heading off to 170'+, you wouldn't be much of a buddy if you didn't.

Terry

My point is you don't go from shallow.... to 170'+ in an instant! What is your definition of relatively shallow and was it established exactly what depth they were going to be limited to? I acknowledge the DM missed the window of opportunity but I am with ItsBruce on this... I am not sure I can call that negligence. We also can't rule out the DM being Nark'd.

CDNScubaMoose I absolutely agree! I think my "chamber dives" were two of the most important dives I will ever do! People are willing to travel for the opportunity to dive with certain fish... well I think if you have to travel to get to do a chamber dive it is well worth leaving that fish for another day!

I am a much safer diver because of what I learned in that chamber about myself, my regular dive buddy and others. The Chamber tech separated normal buddies so we could watch each other on the screen without being nark'd. We learned a lot about each other that way too!

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

Once again hindsight is 20/20... we know when the window of opportunity occurred in this case.

I don't say the DM was blameless but I can also see where the DM would be surprised at the response of being "brushed off" and have a moment!

The next time I indicate to my buddy that we should or shouldn't do something and don't get immediate compliance maybe I should hop on his tank and force him to the surface?

If you don't think a little old lady can be a handful you obviously have never had to restrain or try to control an Alzheimer's Patient.

I am afraid I think the person responsible for Mrs Woods' unfortunate demise is Mrs Wood. I think others may have some small share of the blame but that is all and IMHO the DM had the deck stacked against her from the moment she entered the water on this dive.

Hi bowlofpetunias,

I understand and agree with most of what you are saying, but at this point I finally need to "come clean" and say that my comments are not so much "hindsight" as they are actually "deja vu".

I've been involved an eerily similar situation to the one described in this incident, but the outcome was far happier.

With out going into full and boring detail, it involved a tropical location, a sheer drop off, depth, narcosis, a non-coopperative diver, and initial confusion by the dive leader as to what to do next as not one but two potential victims swam deeper after being warned to stop and brushed off the leader. And yes, it did require that the dive leader physically grab and then swim one of them up into shallower water while the other followed.

I was the designated "dive leader", and was 19 years old at the time. I was just a "regular" diver, not a dive professional of any kind.

The two divers I "brought up" from the depths were a fortyish father and his teenage son. The dad had been diving longer than I had, but had less recent dive experience and less experience at depth (I did not know that until later).

They would either have been bent or dead and I not intervened and "physically" stopped them. The dad was narc'ed, and the son was following him.

The situation I found myself in (uncooperative diver that ignored a warning to not go any deeper) was indeed very confusing, and I understand the confusion the DM must have felt.

But the DM also knew, like I knew, that if the divers continued to descend, bad things were probably going to happen.

To prevent an injury or fatality, you may be forced to physically intervene. Most of us will have a pretty good idea when "it's time" to do this. I did not see any other option in the incident I was involved in, and I don't see another option for the DM in this accident. She had warned Mrs. Woods, gotten brushed-off, and at that point should have decided "it's time" and physically stopped Mrs. Woods.

I do feel for the DM, can fully understand the confusion she felt and how bad she must now feel.

Best wishes.

 

[scubadada]

Hi bowlofpetunias,

I understand and agree with most of what you are saying, but at this point I finally need to "come clean" and say that my comments are not so much "hindsight" as they are actually "deja vu".

I've been involved an eerily similar situation to the one described in this incident, but the outcome was far happier.

With out going into full and boring detail, it involved a tropical location, a sheer drop off, depth, narcosis, a non-coopperative diver, and initial confusion by the dive leader as to what to do next as not one but two potential victims swam deeper after being warned to stop and brushed off the leader. And yes, it did require that the dive leader physically grab and then swim one of them up into shallower water while the other followed.

I was the designated "dive leader", and was 19 years old at the time. I was just a "regular" diver, not a dive professional of any kind.

The two divers I "brought up" from the depths were a fortyish father and his teenage son. The dad had been diving longer than I had, but had less recent dive experience and less experience at depth (I did not know that until later).

They would either have been bent or dead and I not intervened and "physically" stopped them. The dad was narc'ed, and the son was following him.

The situation I found myself in (uncooperative diver that ignored a warning to not go any deeper) was indeed very confusing, and I understand the confusion the DM must have felt.

But the DM also knew, like I knew, that if the divers continued to descend, bad things were probably going to happen.

To prevent an injury or fatality, you may be forced to physically intervene. Most of us will have a pretty good idea when "it's time" to do this. I did not see any other option in the incident I was involved in, and I don't see another option for the DM in this accident. She had warned Mrs. Woods, gotten brushed-off, and at that point should have decided "it's time" and physically stopped Mrs. Woods.

I do feel for the DM, can fully understand the confusion she felt and how bad she must now feel.

Best wishes.

Thanks for the post LeadTurn_SD. I hope I'm able to act as admirably if or when "it's time" for me.

Most appreciatively, Craig

 

[Web Monkey]

My point is you don't go from shallow.... to 170'+ in an instant! What is your definition of relatively shallow and was it established exactly what depth they were going to be limited to?

Even if there had been no explicit depth limit, a reasonable person would assume a depth limit appropriate for the C-Card the diver presented, and the equipment and available gas.

As a DiveCon, if someone hires me as a buddy and shows me an OW card and an AL 80, I'm going to assume a max depth of around 60', would start getting concerned with anything much deeper, and would take action if the decent continued. A bunch of dives and AOW or better might get to 80' - 90'.

Terry

 

[redacted]

Even if there had been no explicit depth limit, a reasonable person would assume a depth limit appropriate for the C-Card the diver presented, and the equipment and available gas.

As a DiveCon, if someone hires me as a buddy and shows me an OW card and an AL 80, I'm going to assume a max depth of around 60', would start getting concerned with anything much deeper, and would take action if the decent continued. A bunch of dives and AOW or better might get to 80' - 90'.

Terry

My OW card took me to over 100 ft quite regularly. Do you get hired often by certified divers for such dives?

 

[Web Monkey]

My OW card took me to over 100 ft quite regularly. Do you get hired often by certified divers for such dives?

When I posted, I already knew you or someone else was going to pop up and say exactly what you did.

You aren't the issue because the chances of you hiring a DM to be your buddy are somewhere between "snowball's chance in hell" and "none"

At the request of the diver, the shop will ask me to be the diver's buddy. We go out and have a nice, safe quiet dive with no extreme depths, no drama, injuries, "OOA" incidents or descents significantly beyond certification limits.

If this isn't "exciting" enough, the diver is welcome to come back next time with their own buddy and do anything that makes them happy.

Terry

 

[mrlipis]

Webmonkey, with all do respect, you are continually basing your argument on an assumption that Mrs. Wood hired this DM. Furthermore, while it would be nice if all DMs checked C cards and assessed the divers ability, we know it isn't happening like it should be and PADI sits on the sidelines and does nothing. The death of Brendan in the Caymans is the most recent example.