Bahamas: Missing Female Diver

[ScooterSouthFlorida]

I do not understand why some posters seem to think the description of the victim pushing the DM away equates with resisting. I see it as being obstinate or pig-headed, not as fighting against being brought to the surface.

I agree, there is a significant difference from someone being 'out of it' and offering up a confused resistence vs. 'ain't no one gonna take control of me down there when I gots my dive knife and am in control of my faculties and in control of my own destiny' scenario which everyone seems to be self-projecting onto this incident.

To CDN, I look forward to your findings on whether or not you can assume control of a diver during your test/experiment. It may open alot of eyes.

 

[ScubaSteve]

To CDN, I look forward to your findings on whether or not you can assume control of a diver during your test/experiment. It may open alot of eyes.

Only if those eyes are "OPEN" to being opened (and possibly corrected). We have some pretty stubborn SB members that are unlikely to give up their position. I think we have seen a lot of that in this thread.

None the less, I am interested to see what Mr. Moose comes up with. I had never really given that much thought about forcably fighting off someone that wanted to gain control over me underwater until this thread.....

 

[OneRestlessNative]

I applaud the deeper thought into the subject of experimentation and learning/teaching from this experience. BUT, (although I know the need to be safe) this experiment is semi biased and not indicative of a worst case scenario. Why not try a full frontal takeover? I know and it seems very obvious that the defender has full advantage to guard his back from being overtaken. Simply due to the fact the rescuer having the disadvantage of having to make huge maneuvers, versus the defender pivoting to counter and cover. Now lets add in a sheer wall, 6000' bottom, and all this happening at 100+' and descending....... That adds a whole new twist!
Some have stated that they would just grab a strap and that's all there is too it. Here again, I have to say that if you are in arms reach of me I could VERY easily inflict serious damage, or put you on a serious predicament to in more ways than one might initially think. Once you are in my grasp you are just as much at my mercy as I am yours. This situation could go bad very quickly, I don't think the argument of the deceased being female is a valid point either. I have known some VERY SCRAPPY women in my day!!!
As stated in the observations of the witness, his attention was with his buddy/wife as well (a VERY WISE decision if i may add!!!), and perhaps he did not see all of what transpired as well as what happened to prelude/antagonize the entire situation.
The true question here is: How much is one willing to do/risk their own well being and safety to save or rescue a combative or an arrogant person that is willingly defying all attempts and rational safe practice of this sport? AND how much is expected or required? No one can be trained to deal with EVERY experience. It is purely situational and one has to take their training and apply it accordingly to make the best and safest decision at that critical moment for the safety of everyone involved.

 

[Web Monkey]

I applaud the deeper thought into the subject of experimentation and learning/teaching from this experience. BUT, (although I know the need to be safe) this experiment is semi biased and not indicative of a worst case scenario. Why not try a full frontal takeover? I know and it seems very obvious that the defender has full advantage to guard his back from being overtaken. Simply due to the fact the rescuer having the disadvantage of having to make huge maneuvers, versus the defender pivoting to counter and cover. Now lets add in a sheer wall, 6000' bottom, and all this happening at 100+' and descending....... That adds a whole new twist!
Some have stated that they would just grab a strap and that's all there is too it. Here again, I have to say that if you are in arms reach of me I could VERY easily inflict serious damage, or put you on a serious predicament to in more ways than one might initially think. Once you are in my grasp you are just as much at my mercy as I am yours.

This is all fascinating, however it's also irrelevant. We're not talking about Enter the Ninja or Navy SEALs. We're talking about an elderly woman who lacked the skills and/or confidence to dive without a DM.

Also, no "huge maneuvers" are necessary. The woman took off. Unless she had a rear-view mirror, she wouldn't have a clue who was following or what they were going to do.

I have absolutely no doubt that any properly trained professional who was assigned as her buddy and was paying attention could easily have prevented this fatality in any number of ways, including bringing her back to the surface if necessary.

Terry

 

[mikerault]

Gee, with all this "Don't blame the professional" going around I thought this was the AMA!

 

[Web Monkey]

The true question here is: How much is one willing to do/risk their own well being and safety to save or rescue a combative or an arrogant person that is willingly defying all attempts and rational safe practice of this sport?

"Safe practice" means preventing things like this before they happen.

AND how much is expected or required? No one can be trained to deal with EVERY experience. It is purely situational and one has to take their training and apply it accordingly to make the best and safest decision at that critical moment for the safety of everyone involved.

The point is that if the DM was doing her job, the "critical moment" would have happened at 70' where there's little risk and plenty of time, air and NDL, not down past the NDL where every choice becomes an in-your head SAC/Remaining Gas/Deco calculation.

I hate to play "throw the DM under the bus", but if the DM was in fact, assigned as the deceased's buddy, he/she really blew it.

Terry

 

[OneRestlessNative]

I am not challenging what you are saying the DM responsibility is. I am not wanting to re read 1000 posts for specifics to argue a point. I am merely stating that there is still some speculation in this case. As far as the elderly lady comment. My mom is almost 60 and will still give any grown man a good *** woopin. I am not talking ENTER THE NINJA or SEAL TRAINING but a well placed or random flailing chop to the esophagus per say ummm would leave you all but dead or critically wounded at 100+ feet. I am not here to argue points, maybe challenge a thought...yes. It seems that some here have this idea that they can, could, or would have done better? As the witness stated he did not have TOTAL situational awareness between the dive master and the victim from departure to time of death so everything and any judgement placed by anyone not involved is just speculation. I am merely adding my thoughts and opinions and challenging some of the preconceived notions that some seem to think they would without a doubt be able to prevent. I bet this dive master as well as a few other have stated, that the thought of a situation like this never occurred to them. I see and acknowledge most of the points in everyone's comments, but in the context of this specific case "if" is a huge Grey area, and I don't think anyone can TRULY say what they would or could do until placed in a "situation".

 

[scubadada]

This is all fascinating, however it's also irrelevant. We're not talking about Enter the Ninja or Navy SEALs. We're talking about an elderly woman who lacked the skills and/or confidence to dive without a DM.

Also, no "huge maneuvers" are necessary. The woman took off. Unless she had a rear-view mirror, she wouldn't have a clue who was following or what they were going to do.

I have absolutely no doubt that any properly trained professional who was assigned as her buddy and was paying attention could easily have prevented this fatality in any number of ways, including bringing her back to the surface if necessary.

Terry

I've been following this thread since inception. Web Monkey is absolutely correct, a competent diver would have been able to gain control over the situation and bring it to an acceptable conclusion. I would certainly expect as much of myself.

On the other hand, if I wanted to escape rescue, I bet I could.

Good diving, Craig.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

I've been following this thread since inception. Web Monkey is absolutely correct, a competent diver would have been able to gain control over the situation and bring it to an acceptable conclusion. I would certainly expect as much of myself.

On the other hand, if I wanted to escape rescue, I bet I could.

Good diving, Craig.

Yep.

The point we need to return to is the fact that in this incident the victim displayed "uncooperative" behavior, but nothing stated indictes the DM was in any danger from the victim.

If the victim wanted to actively escape and sprinted headlong for the bottom, and the DM was never able to catch up, that is a different story. As is a victim who presents a real threat to the rescuer.

Neither of those situations appear to apply here.

From what I've read, it appears that the DM was able to make physical contact with the victim (after the intial separation), tried to get the victim to return to shallower water, the victim brushed off the attempt and continued to descend, and the DM didn't know what to do next and let the victim get away agian, resulting in a fatal accident. There were no drawn knives, no masks and regulators ripped off, no underwater martial arts... just an unexpected situation that presented itself to an unready DM.

Best Wishes.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Once again hindsight is 20/20... we know when the window of opportunity occurred in this case.

I don't say the DM was blameless but I can also see where the DM would be surprised at the response of being "brushed off" and have a moment!

The next time I indicate to my buddy that we should or shouldn't do something and don't get immediate compliance maybe I should hop on his tank and force him to the surface?

If you don't think a little old lady can be a handful you obviously have never had to restrain or try to control an Alzheimer's Patient.

I am afraid I think the person responsible for Mrs Woods' unfortunate demise is Mrs Wood. I think others may have some small share of the blame but that is all and IMHO the DM had the deck stacked against her from the moment she entered the water on this dive.