Bahamas: Missing Female Diver

[Web Monkey]

Webmonkey, with all do respect, you are continually basing your argument on an assumption that Mrs. Wood hired this DM.

Hiring is irrelevant.

According to a post way back in the beginning of the thread: "I was also the first out follow by the DM or a guy and his wife who told me that the DM and her partner had got split"

The DM was Mrs. Woods' buddy and had the responsibility to be, at the very least, a "good buddy".

Furthermore, while it would be nice if all DMs checked C cards and assessed the divers ability, we know it isn't happening like it should be and PADI sits on the sidelines and does nothing. The death of Brendan in the Caymans is the most recent example.

However, regardless of whether cards were checked (or the DM was Mrs Woods buddy or not), the DM had physical contact with Mrs Woods while still at a reasonable depth, and did not stop her descent even though she was exhibiting irrational behavior by continuing her descent.

I beleive a professional has the responsibility to do whatever can be safely done, to prevent unnecessary death and injury. If that means pissing off a customer, all I can say "too bad". It's a risk I'll take every time in exchange for avoiding a fatality.

Nobody is saying that the DM should have gone down hundreds of feet to rescue the deceased (the OP says that bubbles were visible @ 170', which means they were originating from at least 270'+, given 100;+ vis.). I know that I wouldn't do it. I also won't do rocket ascents from great depths to stop a run-away diver from surfacing. These are all extremely dangerous.

However if a professional or even a good buddy finds a diver alone, at a depth greater than everybody else, and continuing to descend, it's reasonable to stop the disaster before it starts.

Terry

 

[redacted]

You aren't the issue because the chances of you hiring a DM to be your buddy are somewhere between "snowball's chance in hell" and "none"

At the request of the diver, the shop will ask me to be the diver's buddy. We go out and have a nice, safe quiet dive with no extreme depths, no drama, injuries, "OOA" incidents or descents significantly beyond certification limits.

If this isn't "exciting" enough, the diver is welcome to come back next time with their own buddy and do anything that makes them happy.

Terry

Actually, my wife and I have hired a DM in Cozumel to accompany us just a couple years ago. He was a new DM that I liked and they were not going to dive him that day. So I asked for him to go with us.

I still don't think we know why the DM was "buddied" with Mrs. Woods or what the Woods' expectations were.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I still don't think we know why the DM was "buddied" with Mrs. Woods or what the Woods' expectations were.

But as a buddy, is there not certain expectations that one can have? Perhaps those are even a little bit higher when the buddy is a Pro....I believe that is what Terry is getting at.

 

[redacted]

But as a buddy, is there not certain expectations that one can have? Perhaps those are even a little bit higher when the buddy is a Pro....I believe that is what Terry is getting at.

I don't expect much if it has not been discussed and planned in advance. I'm always amazed when diver A complains his buddy, diver B was 10 meters away from him. Doesn't that mean that diver B's buddy was also 10 meters away.

And I'm not sure how I would react if a pick-up buddy resisted my attempts to coordinate or control our current dive. If I encountered physical resistance and did not detect some problem, I'd might well just wave goodbye before getting into a situation I was not planning on.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I don't expect much if it has not been discussed and planned in advance. I'm always amazed when diver A complains his buddy, diver B was 10 meters away from him. Doesn't that mean that diver B's buddy was also 10 meters away.

And I'm not sure how I would react if a pick-up buddy resisted my attempts to coordinate or control our current dive. If I encountered physical resistance and did not detect some problem, I'd might well just wave goodbye before getting into a situation I was not planning on.

So you would need it to be discussed ahead of time that your buddy would expect that you would stop them from doing something stupid (swimming deeper into the abyss) if they seemed to be acting odd (possibly narc'd)? I would think that would be a given, but that is just me I suppose.

 

[redacted]

So you would need it to be discussed ahead of time that your buddy would expect that you would stop them from doing something stupid (swimming deeper into the abyss) if they seemed to be acting odd (possibly narc'd)? I would think that would be a given, but that is just me I suppose.

Once I am confronted with physical resistance, it is a new ballgame. I'd be signaling, but I doubt if I would physically approach again unless it was quite clear to me the diver needed or wanted help and I was not exposing myself to harm trying to aid a diver who did not want help.

I'm probably not going to put myself at risk for some unknown buddy who decides that the planned 80 ft dive is a great opportunity for him to go for his 140 ft depth record after he pushes me away at 100 ft and continues a controlled descent. And, if he then continues that descent past 140, I'll watch as he and his bubbles disappear so I can relocate the exact spot.

One of my regular buddies would, of course, be a different story.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I agree that NOT putting yourself at risk is an easy decision. New buddy or not. I too would likely fight harder for someone I knew well. However, I think you agreed through your words that you would do something to turn the diver around. That was my point.....that some things should be expected of a good buddy (and yes this should be reciprocal) to varying degrees which are impacted by relationship, severity of the situation etc.. If confronted by aggression, I am not sure that I would continue the rescue.....I suppose it depends. I would stop when I felt that the diver would pose a serious risk to my own safety. But up until that point, I would do what I can to get them "back". I am not going to pull the macho "they'd never get past me" crap.....I would try my darndest and I would have to live with whatever the results were...good or bad. I personally believe that that should be expected of a buddy. The outcome will vary but a diver should be allowed to expect that much effort of a buddy.

Once I am confronted with physical resistance, it is a new ballgame. I'd be signaling, but I doubt if I would physically approach again unless it was quite clear to me the diver needed or wanted help and I was not exposing myself to harm trying to aid a diver who did not want help.

I'm probably not going to put myself at risk for some unknown buddy who decides that the planned 80 ft dive is a great opportunity for him to go for his 140 ft depth record after he pushes me away at 100 ft and continues a controlled descent. And, if he then continues that descent past 140, I'll watch as he and his bubbles disappear so I can relocate the exact spot.

One of my regular buddies would, of course, be a different story.

 

[boulderjohn]

I still don't think we know why the DM was "buddied" with Mrs. Woods or what the Woods' expectations were.

This very question has been gnawing at me for some time, so I went back through this whole blessed thread and pulled out a couple quotes from people who were close to the situation and/or the victim personally. There were more on the topic--these are representative. I am doing this to remind us of something that was once an important part of the debate but lately seems to be forgotten.

Point One: The decision to hire a personal DM for Mrs. Woods was made at the last second and delayed the departure of the boat. It is likely that she did not herself initiate the hiring, and she may have been unhappy about it.

The procurement for a private DM, is also said to be at the very last minute. To the extent that the boat was unable to leave until Mrs Wood returned from the dive shop having procured 3. as a private DM.
With the benefit of hind sight one would surly have suggested a refresher course that would have been performed at a "bottomed" site rather than placing the responsibility upon a DM, the moral perhaps is that the Customer isn't always right.........

First, if this was a last minute procurment of the DM before the boat could leave, I'm guessing thats because when everyone was being signed in on that boat she was discovered to have not dived for more than 3 years and should have had a refresher. I say this because when I was there, the DM on our boat (short fiesty gal whom I can't remember her name) asked this of a diver and when she discovered he hadn't dove in 3 years, kicked him off for the refresher in the pool. He was then ferried out to join the group on the second dive.

Dantheengineer stated that the personal DM was a last minute thing and the boat couldn't leave until she had one.

This would lead me to believe that she hadn't dove in 3 years, or in light of the recent info, she had health problems and they required the DM.

Point Two: Mrs. Woods is described by acquaintances as being aggressive and headstrong to the point of being rude.

No, it was not speculation. My friend was very familiar with Mrs. Wood, he worked with her professionally. He reported that she had a stroke recently, he did not mention the severity. He also mentioned that in normal life she had an aggressive manner, hearing that she was agitated and reacted the way she did during this mishap was not completely out of character for her.

... It may be that she felt this might be her last chance ever to dive, her husband was concerned for her safety and they found a compromise in hiring a DM to be her buddy "just in case". From what I was told by a friend of hers, she rarely took no for an answer and her strength of personality was high.

I worked with Radha for over 6 years in Orinda. When she first spoke with me about diving I was very suprised she got certified without ever learning to swim! I did my best to convince her diving and not being able to swim was a deadly mixture. I am a DM myself and tried as I may I could not talk sense into her. I'm very sorry to hear about her accident, but it was bound to happen. I didn't hear about the stroke the month prior to the accident, but I do know she had one about a year and a half ago. Jayjones post #372 mentioned Radha's being, shall we say a little head strong, that's putting it mildly. Not to speak ill of the dead but she could be very pushy/rude and had definate opinions on things and didn't care about yours.
As a diver I'm sad to hear of the loss, it hurts us all. As a person, well that's a different story, shall I say, I have a definate opinion on that myself it's probably better I don't share openly.

 

[Steve50]

This very question has been gnawing at me for some time, so I went back through this whole blessed thread and pulled out a couple quotes from people who were close to the situation and/or the victim personally. There were more on the topic--these are representative. I am doing this to remind us of something that was once an important part of the debate but lately seems to be forgotten.

Point One: The decision to hire a personal DM for Mrs. Woods was made at the last second and delayed the departure of the boat. It is likely that she did not herself initiate the hiring, and she may have been unhappy about it.



Point Two: Mrs. Woods is described by acquaintances as being aggressive and headstrong to the point of being rude.

Thanks and my condolences

 

[boulderjohn]

If Mrs. Woods was an aggressive and rude person who did not want to have a DM and was angry about other imposed limitations on her dive, then it could easily explain the initial separation of the two. Let's say the DM said, "We will not be going deeper than 60 feet" and Mrs. Woods thought, "That's what you think." In that case, a separation is not only explainable but likely.

A DM who is not expecting her assigned buddy to bolt will not be watching her every second but will instead be doing normal DM stuff at times, like looking into holes for interesting critters. If Mrs. Woods is waiting for just such an opportunity to take off deeper, then there will be a separation. The DM's first response upon noticing the separation would be to remind her with a signal--which witnesses reported seeing. When there was no response from the signal, the DM would take off in pursuit--which witnesses also reported seeing.

Once the DM made contact and was physically rebuffed, we should expect that the DM would have the physical capacity to overcome that. In the scenario I described, the only thing that does not make perfect sense to me in terms of this incident is the failure of the DM to overcome the physical resistance.