Bahamas: Missing Female Diver

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Once the DM made contact and was physically rebuffed, we should expect that the DM would have the physical capacity to overcome that. In the scenario I described, the only thing that does not make perfect sense to me in terms of this incident is the failure of the DM to overcome the physical resistance.

I would not assume that a DM should or would have the physical capacity to overcome the physical resistance from Mrs. Woods. More importantly, I would not be the least surprised if the DM was so taken aback by the physical encounter that she initially withdrew. That could easily leave a determined diver plenty of opportunity to continue a descent beyond a depth that the DM could be expected to make another attempt to gain control over the resistant diver.

I don't believe I have seen anything that would contradict a hypothesis that Mrs Woods committed suicide and that the DM was a last minute addition to provide credibility to finding of accidental death.

I feel sorry for the loss of Mrs Woods but I also feel sorry for the poor DM and dive op.
 
More importantly, I would not be the least surprised if the DM was so taken aback by the physical encounter that she initially withdrew. That could easily leave a determined diver plenty of opportunity to continue a descent beyond a depth that the DM could be expected to make another attempt to gain control over the resistant diver.

That could be possible. The scenario is extremely unusual, and the DM could have been very confused about what was happening.

Suicide is not necessarily the intention, though. The same result could have occurred had Mrs. Woods gone on down, headstrong and excited, until she was at such a great depth that any of a number of things could have happened.
 
It may have been nothing more than a strong willed person demonstrating her dominance to the upstart young DM who was not prepared for a battle of wills in defiance of logic. Many people find it hard to accept direction from a "youngster". Description of Mrs Wood's would make her a prime candidate for this scenario.
 
Yes, there are explanations other than suicide. Strong willed and an unfortunate accident is clearly a possibility but leaves me wondering why the husband was not buddied with his wife.
 
Yes, there are explanations other than suicide. Strong willed and an unfortunate accident is clearly a possibility but leaves me wondering why the husband was not buddied with his wife. I suspect these are things investigators will try to answer.
 
Could be he enjoyed the chance to get away and do something on his own. We had some friends who hated to buddy together... they would actually argue underwater! They enjoyed diving a lot better buddied with others... sad IMHO since my husband is my favourite person to buddy with.
 
Could be he enjoyed the chance to get away and do something on his own. We had some friends who hated to buddy together... they would actually argue underwater! They enjoyed diving a lot better buddied with others... sad IMHO since my husband is my favourite person to buddy with.

Yes, if that is an established behavior pattern, I'm sure the investigation will note that. I see the potential for a new CSI style program here.
 
A headstrong diver not willing to take direction from a young DM and wanting to dive deeper is certainly a possibility. I think it is clear that Mrs. Wood did show personality characteristics that would support this hypothesis. If you buy this explanation, then the logic behind it could/should equally be applied to suicide--a willful diver intent on ending her own life could be just as obstinate (maybe more so). The logic applies equally to both scenarios. It is easy to pick certain facts to support a conclusion (I use "facts" rather loosely because all of this is second hand, based on subjective decriptions of her behavior based on past encounters. Some people might describe me as gentle and easygoing, while others might describe me as an aggressive bully). I could easily cite certain "facts" to support the suicide hypothesis. For instance, she was elderly and in failing health, two possible motivations for suicide.

Either of these theories could be argued equally, but the same logic must be applied to both scenarios. Without being inside the victim's head, and without some additional outside evidence, there is a strong possibility that we will never know exactly what happened.
 
Webmonkey, with all do respect, you are continually basing your argument on an assumption that Mrs. Wood hired this DM. Furthermore, while it would be nice if all DMs checked C cards and assessed the divers ability, we know it isn't happening like it should be and PADI sits on the sidelines and does nothing. The death of Brendan in the Caymans is the most recent example.

And most likely not the last unfortunately. I am doing an AOW class with the OP from that thread and her husband next weekend. They are traveling from North Carolina to Pennsylvania to take my AOW class that addresses many of these issues and those involving being responsible for yourself. Any time dive pros fail to recognize problems before they start the potential for an accident is there. One of those times is with divers who feel they know everything and will do just as they please. If I'm not mistaken Cappyjon had one of those not too long ago. They are headstrong, adverse to taking direction and pose a threat not only to themselves but other divers and any pros who may be charged with guiding them.

If the deceased truly needed a buddy other than her husband this to me is a red flag. Why do they not want to dive together? I want that clear before I assign a Dm to the person. Is it because of differences in skill, experience, or lack of it? In which case maybe I take em to a safe site with a hard bottom or insist on a checkout dive first. If they choose to go somewhere else oh well. If there was any indication of a medical issue perhaps that person goes as a bubble watcher or not at all. If they fail to disclose issues that pose a risk to staff then why should staff risk their lives to protect a liar or deceitful person? If this woman had the reputation that she seems to then that is usually not a hidden thing. Better to let them get pissed an go elsewhere than deal with them.

I;ve been around many like this when employed where interaction with the general public is required. Before my present job I spent many years in the grocery business as a butcher. My grandfather taught me the trade starting at age 8. For over 20 years I put up with nasty, picky, evil tempered people that were satisfied with nothing. They enjoyed running you down and demonstrating their self importance. Their lives and opinions were miles above everyone else's. And they did not fail to let you know it. If they had money they were even worse.

These were the ones that no one wanted to wait on. THere would be straws drawn, coins flipped, seniority pulled to get out of dealing with these people. It was one of the major reasons for me getting out of the business. But then there were those whose kindness, sincerity, and respect for the fact that you were preparing their food that made some of that easier to deal with. But for me there were not enough of those people.

But the former were easily identified and pose problems that have to be dealt with if the person so chooses to. I'd like to know what Mrs Woods behavior was like prior to the dive. How did she interact with the others on the boat? Was she exhibiting any signs of stress or agitation? If so why was she allowed in the water? If acting as a personal DM I would be trying to engage them in conversation. Find out recent experience, diving style, air consumption, and their interests. If I encountered any behavior that struck me as odd I;d let someone else know and perhaps refuse to dive with the person.

Her age may have also given the DM a false sense of security. How many here would really expect a 67 yr old female vaction diver to take off for 140 or deeper? Factor in Narcosis of the DM and the resistance of the victim to assistance and I'm willing to give the DM more slack now. I feel confident I could have handled the situation but can't say for sure since I was not there. And then if indeed the DM had succeeded in forcing Mrs Woods to the surface and that had caused a medical issue what then? Or if in the course of doing this the DM had been injured? All over what appears to be more and more of a case of a mean person bent on doing themselves in. Maybe I missed it but has the body even been recovered? What is the coroners inquest or it;s equivalent saying? How is the DM dealing with it? I was one of those who initially faulted her but as more and more came out it seems that the person responsible for causing the most damage, pain, and trouble was the victim.
 
As an instructor, during my rescue courses I teach students not to make decisions that could cause the rescuer to become a victim as well. Ms. Woods was a certified diver and as such she was ultimately responsible for her decisions. If the DM was hired as a buddy, then she had buddy responsibilities but those did not include risking her life for Ms. Woods.

Say I was diving with my buddy and I dropped a piece of equipment like my camera (he didn't see it falling) and I started down after it. He comes down and grabs me, I push him away and plan just to chase the camera a little further to see if I can catch it. Oops, I'm down at 130 feet and am now narked. I continue to head down because my judgment is impaired. Is my buddy to blame? Should he have risked his life to try and save mine? Perhaps Ms. Woods saw something that she wanted to investigate more and was not impaired at all when she pushed the DM away.

Occasionally I'll hear someone say, "My buddy was so far away from me during that dive!" I'm always tempted to respond, "Your buddy is probably saying the same thing". Being a buddy is a two-way street.

I don't know what their dive plan was prior to getting into the water. If Ms. Woods decided to deviate from that plan, that's a decision that Ms. Woods made as a responsible certified SCUBA diver.
 
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