Bahamas: Missing Female Diver

[jkaterenchuk]

Folks,

I know that the States doesn't have this type of system, but I know there are of course, doctors there specialised in diving medicine. I strongly encourage all divers over the age of 40 (or maybe younger, deopending your med history) to go and get checked by one before diving. Yes, we all love to dive, but it's stupid to risk your life when this is so easy to check out BEFORE you go diving.

Best regards,
Tricia

Tricia

I think you have a good point that people should get yearly check-ups so I do not want to down play this point with my next comments. I also appologize in advance for using your case as an example but your posting is timely and it helps me to explain my point further.

I see a glaring inconsistent hole in your point that "its stupid to risk your life". Where is the line drawn medically. You say you smoke and I am assuming that you did not start between your last appointment and this next one. Smoking puts you in a higher risk category for a DCS incident and potentially hypercapnia incident. If you smoke then why does the doctor OK you to dive? If not then what is the criteria he would use and is that a medically valid criteria that all his fellow diving doctors would also use to restrict other divers?

Let alone the risk you are taking outside of diving on your personal health with smoking and its effects on your health. I am sure you realize people die from it every day but you continue to do it and ignore the opinions of the medical community and the Surgeon Generals Warning on every pack. But if the diving doctor says I cannot dive because I smoke then thats bad and I should not dive. I suspect you already know that its not a good thing and do not need a diving Doc to tell you.

I respect your right to decide if you want to smoke or not. And should you have a and incident when diving in which the fact that you smoke is a contributing cause then I do not want to have to live with regulations that now allow people to say I cannot dive because I smoke (which I do not). Similarily, I suspect you and every other smoker in the world would not be very receptive to smoking being outlawed in your non diving life because someone died from it.

Anyways, I have attempted to support my opinion that regulating a medical clearance to determine what kind of dives you are permitted to do is not a good thing and is subject to vagueness and agenda's which are not in my best interest. So I will not continue to make this point further. On the other hand those that have suggested that it would be a good thing have brought nothing to the table in terms of facts that show the regulations improve diver safety.

John

 

[shoredivr]

By the way my comments to your post was to reinforce that common sense was way too broad of a statement. You thought it was a good thing and I think its a terrible thing so how could it be common sense. I would never want the dive operators using a medical screening so that they can make a decision what dive site I should or should not dive and certainly not because someone's lack of responsibility and accountability caused that to happen. There are too many other agenda that can come into play with such a requirement of which most would not be in my best interest but rather in the best interest of the dive operator or their insurance company. In fact I would say that most family doctors have no real knowledge about what does or does not effect diving and would most likely error on the side of conservatism. If we all followed that model then none of us would be diving either recreational or technical since the No Decompression Tables you are using are not an exact science.


John

I don't think you read this post.

In Quebec there is already government meddling with diving; the government organization that is doing the meddling is FQAS. Fédération Québécoise des Activités Subaquatiques (Last time I checked, there is no english translation.)

In this thread you'll see that I'm not in favour of the FQAS approach at all:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3893356

I agree that most MDs do not have knowledge of what does/does not affect diving.

And I agree that any statistics about effectiveness of gov't/dive agency screening divers for health reasons (eg CMAS, BSAC, AU etc) would be valuable to this discussion.

 

[ItsBruce]

I think it is prudent for divers to have regular medical examinations. Having read Tricia's post I will probably have a doctor with scuba experience do my next one.

I do not like the idea of the government or any other agency telling me if I am fit to dive. I will make that decision based on what I learn from my doctor and/or those with whom I consult. If I am at greater risk, I want to be the one to make the choice about whether to expose myself to it.

While I don't want the government or an agency telling me if I am "fit to dive," I recognize that the dive operator and my buddy should have input into the matter. If I get into trouble, it may fall to my buddy to rescue me or to the dive op to arrange for evacuation. Either way, it could spoil someone else's dive, day or trip, and I would not want to do that. In fact, I do not have the right to do that.

Just as my buddy had the unconditional right to thumb a dive for any reason, my buddy and the dive op have the right to thumb it before I get on the boat or get into the water. If one of them does, will I be unhappy. Sure. But, I assume the risk of being unhappy in exchange for being allowed to go onto the dive boat or have a dive buddy. If I am unwilling to assume that particular risk, there are plenty of local beaches.

Just my 2 psi worth.

 

[Grover48]

A prevailing scenario is a person who thinks things will be all right anyway. As a fireman, I see it over and over again where a patient will leave out medical history when we respond to a request for medical aid because they don't think it is relevant. Then the actions we take don't alleviate the symptoms because I don't have sufficient info to make an informed decision. Perhaps this is what happen in this case. She had not had any symptoms for the previous few weeks and thought "It will be OK."

A persons actions may not be predicated on self harm, but result in grave harm because of the lack of pertinent information being given to someone who could help make a better decision.

 

[Cave Diver]

My advise is stop reading after about page 5 and you will have gotten 99% of the useful learning and then use the time you would of otherwise wasted reading the rest to go out and dive instead of internet diving.

If your opinion is that this thread is so worthless, why have you contined to participate instead of taking your own advice?

 

[bowlofpetunias]

I think it is prudent for divers to have regular medical examinations. Having read Tricia's post I will probably have a doctor with scuba experience do my next one.

I do not like the idea of the government or any other agency telling me if I am fit to dive. I will make that decision based on what I learn from my doctor and/or those with whom I consult. If I am at greater risk, I want to be the one to make the choice about whether to expose myself to it.

While I don't want the government or an agency telling me if I am "fit to dive," I recognize that the dive operator and my buddy should have input into the matter. If I get into trouble, it may fall to my buddy to rescue me or to the dive op to arrange for evacuation. Either way, it could spoil someone else's dive, day or trip, and I would not want to do that. In fact, I do not have the right to do that.

Just as my buddy had the unconditional right to thumb a dive for any reason, my buddy and the dive op have the right to thumb it before I get on the boat or get into the water. If one of them does, will I be unhappy. Sure. But, I assume the risk of being unhappy in exchange for being allowed to go onto the dive boat or have a dive buddy. If I am unwilling to assume that particular risk, there are plenty of local beaches.

Just my 2 psi worth.

Well put as usual ItsBruce I find we are supporting basically the same position with a slightly different way of expressing it. Informed consent is the real issue and the best person to give accurate up to date diving health information should be a dive doctor.

The person/operation who may need to rescue you or rely on you for assistance has a right to make a decision about what they get themselves into as well. I have not at any point said that I think there should be government regulated dive medicals.

Just as a dive operator will decide not to put divers into a site/course based on site conditions, training and experience levels they may consider health issue to be relevant as well. As long as they tell me their requirements before I put down my money I have the right to support or not support their business. I do not have the right to put their business, employees and patrons at risk by knowingly hiding relevant information (my .02).

A prevailing scenario is a person who thinks things will be all right anyway. As a fireman, I see it over and over again where a patient will leave out medical history when we respond to a request for medical aid because they don't think it is relevant. Then the actions we take don't alleviate the symptoms because I don't have sufficient info to make an informed decision. Perhaps this is what happen in this case. She had not had any symptoms for the previous few weeks and thought "It will be OK."

A persons actions may not be predicated on self harm, but result in grave harm because of the lack of pertinent information being given to someone who could help make a better decision.

I too have seen this situation unfold many times while I was working as a Paramedic. IMHO communication breakdowns can and do contribute to many deaths. In my opinion that is the case in this incident.

 

[bleeb]

The information from the top of this forum

Accidents and Incidents This forum is for the discussion of diving Accidents and Incidents. Please read the message at the top of the forum before posting threads or responses. Memorial threads can be posted in the Passings forum.

This is a fully moderated forum, dedicated to the systematic analysis of accidents and incidents. Posts will be reviewed for compliance with the rules of accident analysis before they are posted. Patience is important here.

Ok, getting even more off topic here, but this is a little bit of a misquote of TOS of this forum, or may be a cut-and-paste error. The second paragraph quoted, "This is a fully moderated forum..." does NOT apply to Accidents and Incidents as a whole. This paragraph is specifically talking about the Mishap Analysis forum, where every post requires a moderator's explicit approval before it becomes visible to anyone else.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Ok, getting even more off topic here, but this is a little bit of a misquote of TOS of this forum, or may be a cut-and-paste error. The second paragraph quoted, "This is a fully moderated forum..." does NOT apply to Accidents and Incidents as a whole. This paragraph is specifically talking about the Mishap Analysis forum, where every post requires a moderator's explicit approval before it becomes visible to anyone else.

Shall we call it a cut and paste error then? :blinking: The point I was trying to make was that discussing all aspects of the Incident is consistent with the purpose of this SB Forum in general and therefore this thread in particular.

 

[bleeb]

Shall we call it a cut and paste error then? :blinking: The point I was trying to make was that discussing all aspects of the Incident is consistent with the purpose of this SB Forum in general and therefore this thread in particular.

No argument here with that reasoning. :cool2: I just wanted to clarify the other thing, on the small chance that it might cause this thread to wander further off than even this little diversion of ours. Not that that's happened before in this thread.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Interesting reaction John. I'm not sure how you were impacted by the terrible Canadian Health Care System but it has done pretty well for me and my family

I take it from you post that you do what you consider dangerous and high risk diving. With that in mind I am curious to know how often you have dive medicals done? What would trigger you to have a medical? Do you know if professional divers are required to have regular medicals and if so how often?

Our discussion of dive medical was exploring the concept of what if any factors should require a current (by current I would say yearly) medical clearance. When I think of dangerous sites... I think of Deep (will required significant 60min+ in water deco) penetration (would be impractical/impossible for other divers to safely effect a rescue). I would suggest any person conducting these types of dives should be responsible enough to have the appropriate certification, equipment and current medical anyway.

Well this is another example of a total worthless posting and that now make 626 posts. I guess you assume your the only one that understands the purpose for this forum such that you needed to show it to me.

I will continue with my opinion and you can continue your speculation.

Your speculation on the following is wrong and if you want this information you are free to access it on the net.
Since you show AU as your home I suspect your opinion about predive approval comes from the regulations in place in AU that are not well know by divers in other countries. What might be useful would be for you to outline what these reguations are so that others understand your opinion and bias and then back up the fact that they are useful by presenting actual specific studies that indicate the divers in AU incur less accidents and incidents then divers in other countries and that this is directly attributed to these regulations.

John

Sorry to correct you but you made post 626 which I quoted and I had a low opinion of your post. Now I have a low opinion of you since you completely ignored my reasonable request to expand upon the AU regulations and the documented results they have for improving diver safety. Since you tout wanting to use this forum so that people can learn it would seem that you and the AU regulation might have something to prove to us less regulated divers in other countries.

John

As you completely ignored my earlier reasonable request ( With that in mind I am curious to know how often you have dive medicals done? What would trigger you to have a medical? Do you know if professional divers are required to have regular medicals and if so how often?) I do not feel compelled spend my time conducting research for you based on your assumption that it is the basis for my submissions in this thread. My submissions are based on my areas of expertise and if you ever come to Australia please let me know and I will try to arrange for you to sit in on one of my classes.

Frankly you flatter yourself if you think your stating you have a low opinion of me is of any significance to me. I have seen nothing in your posts that generated any desire to impress you.

"Every person is my superior in that I may learn from them" I live by that adage so I stay open minded enough to learn from everyone no matter how good or bad their interpersonal skills are.