phillybob
Contributor
Did a night dive on the Delaware off of Jersey about two weeks ago. Viz was about 2 feet. Sucked. I bagged the second dive because I didn't want to blow $ 18 worth of Nitrox on it.
Bad vis. How bad is too bad?
- Thread starter Jim Lapenta
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Jim,
String speaks for me. It's not a bragging thing, but I just love being in and underwater. If the vis is 0ft then I'll snorkel around on the top chasing seals who keep popping up around me. I've already seen some other PNW divers, so I'll just say the same thing. Vis less than 2 feet is near impossible, but you can dive it if you know the place well, and I have navigated in such conditions. 2-4ft is not uncommon in many of our Cold Murky Pacific NW Waters, including the Jetties dives that I do year round. So, if I said I wouldn't dive under 4ft - well I'd miss a lot of dives and I just love to be diving.
So I said 0-2 ft is too little Vis.
Our last crab dive was an example of too little Vis. I so much wanted to find dungeness crabs, but my regular dive buddy was a little skid-dish and wanted to stay close because he knew he'd get lost in poor vis at the Alsea/Waldport Crab Hole. But I know the place well and am a good guide. It looked as bad as I've ever seen it, but we still went in, hoping that since we're at the mouth of the river, we will have clean ocean water - maybe at the bottom. Well, I lost him as soon as we went in - good gravy -
I'm going to tie you onto me next time. So I came up and got him and kept him close, but you could not even see your gauges unless you held them up to your mask with your light shinning on them! 
He wanted to go up, so I let him, but I wanted to go down and see if the ocean was bringing in clear water - it's only 50f deep and I had my lights. Well I was down to 37f and I still could see nothing!!! Maybe 2-6inches of vis. So I found the wall and slowly climbed up it, looking for crabs. When I came up, there was my wide-eyed friend waiting for me. Then he dropped his fin taking it off in the river!!! I surfaced swam very quickly and kicked around and much to his surprise/delight I felt it and then grabbed the yellow Apollo thing!!!! I then told him that he could have done better by at least leaving one fin on and that I've paddled around in a circle in poor vis before with one black fin and in about an hour found the mate. Anyways, he crawled up on the bank and I surfaced swam for 1/2 hour - with the seals and me popping up. I kept hoping that I would see a crab in some of the shallows - but I couldn't even see my hand. But the vis was less than 2ft and I really couldn't scuba - but I could snorkel. By the way, my buddy is a great guy. He knew that I wanted to get wet and very patiently bird watched as I splashed around - trying not to get caught in the heavy wind trying to push me into the current of the river - and out to sea.P.S. Jim, I'm really enjoying your book!!! I've emailed you some of my thoughts. Thank you.
I do not instruct and I dive solo, so my opinion (10-20 ft) is based on my ability to successfully record subjects on video.
I vividly remembered my OW certification dives (1978). Early spring time, wetsuit, water 39 - 40F, diving in a river with the occasional ice chunk floating on top, depth being 20 - 30 ft with vis being 2 - 4 ft and...having a six to eight foot nylon rope joining the two diving buddies. In fact, in mid water you could vaguely make the form of your buddy unless he/she was swimming shoulder to shoulder and no dive lights and shakers. I will tell you, nobody felt like venturing on their own in such conditions and we stuck together like glue. Navigation was very easy...we swam upstream and exited on our left...lol.
Absolutely the worst diving conditions I experienced...with the exception of a group outing at a submerged lock that saw 15 divers parked themselves in front of the concrete wall and when the elephant herd started kicking (I mean finning) vis went from 15 to 0 in a split second as my buddy (GF) and I we were the last two divers of the group...to the point that we became separated and lost sight of each other while being at max four feet apart. I went sideways maybe 10 -15 ft upstream to get out of the s........ (sediment???) cloud and she went turtle. She turned on her flashlight (you could not see your hand when placed in front of you), used her shaker (no luck with a 7mm hood), and when the cloud started to dissipate, did an about face, reacquired visually the wall and the river bank and very slowly made her way back to the surface entry point. I met her back on the surface a minute or so later after following the lost buddy procedure. Talk about making a first good impression....well in her case, she did.
Absolutely the worst diving conditions I experienced...with the exception of a group outing at a submerged lock that saw 15 divers parked themselves in front of the concrete wall and when the elephant herd started kicking (I mean finning) vis went from 15 to 0 in a split second as my buddy (GF) and I we were the last two divers of the group...to the point that we became separated and lost sight of each other while being at max four feet apart. I went sideways maybe 10 -15 ft upstream to get out of the s........ (sediment???) cloud and she went turtle. She turned on her flashlight (you could not see your hand when placed in front of you), used her shaker (no luck with a 7mm hood), and when the cloud started to dissipate, did an about face, reacquired visually the wall and the river bank and very slowly made her way back to the surface entry point. I met her back on the surface a minute or so later after following the lost buddy procedure. Talk about making a first good impression....well in her case, she did.
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For me the answer is "it depends". It's not my comfort level that it depends on so much as it is the students. I understand that there are various ways to look at it ... and one of those is that the student should get used to low vis conditions early on if that's what they're going to be diving in. But when conditions start to get awful I base the decision on a number of factors ...
- Is vis sufficient for me to maintain visual contact of the students at all times ... and for them to maintain visual contact of each other?
- Can the students achieve the objectives of the dive in these conditions?
- Will the conditions take the students mind off what they're supposed to be learning?
- Are these conditions really appropriate for a student at this level to be diving in?
The first question is as much about them as it is about me ... not only do I need to evaluate the students, but they need to be working on ingraining their buddy skills. In order to do that, they need to be able to see and communicate with each other ... sometimes while task-loaded. While conditions may be adequate for me and another experienced buddy to do that, they may be completely inadequate for less experienced divers to.
The second question is about the dive ... if, for example, it's the AOW navigation dive they need sufficient visibility to be able to see the flags if they're off by a few feet. The course is rather spread out, and a compass isn't exactly a precision instrument. Missing the flag by 10 feet is not a big deal when the vis exceeds that limit ... you will see it and swim to it. Missing it by 10 feet in 5-foot vis means you'll never find it. There are six flags. Miss one, and you literally have to start over. Therefore it's not a good dive to do if the vis is less than 10 feet or so, because the students will just frustrate themselves, and the objectives of the dive will be unachievable.
The third question is all about the students ... and this one's based on the student's ability to perform under stress. Some students handle low-vis better than others. If the conditions are creating sufficient stress that the student can't keep their mind on what they're doing, it's time to get out of the water and re-evaluate why you're doing it, and whether or not it's worthwhile.
And that brings us to the fourth question ... in whatever class I'm teaching, one of the fundamental principles is that anyone can call a dive for any reason at any time. I want to ingrain in my students that they shouldn't hesitate to call a dive if the conditions push them beyond their comfort zone. So what kind of an example do I want to set to drive that point home? If conditions are beyond what I feel are appropriate for the type of class I'm teaching, I'm going to call the dive and tell the students why. If I push ahead in conditions I don't feel are appropriate for the student, I'm sending a message that if you're uncomfortable with the dive you should try it anyway ... and that's not a message I want my students taking away from any class that I teach.
For all of those reasons, any class dive is going to be conducted or called based on conditions that I feel are appropriate for them ... not for me ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
- Is vis sufficient for me to maintain visual contact of the students at all times ... and for them to maintain visual contact of each other?
- Can the students achieve the objectives of the dive in these conditions?
- Will the conditions take the students mind off what they're supposed to be learning?
- Are these conditions really appropriate for a student at this level to be diving in?
The first question is as much about them as it is about me ... not only do I need to evaluate the students, but they need to be working on ingraining their buddy skills. In order to do that, they need to be able to see and communicate with each other ... sometimes while task-loaded. While conditions may be adequate for me and another experienced buddy to do that, they may be completely inadequate for less experienced divers to.
The second question is about the dive ... if, for example, it's the AOW navigation dive they need sufficient visibility to be able to see the flags if they're off by a few feet. The course is rather spread out, and a compass isn't exactly a precision instrument. Missing the flag by 10 feet is not a big deal when the vis exceeds that limit ... you will see it and swim to it. Missing it by 10 feet in 5-foot vis means you'll never find it. There are six flags. Miss one, and you literally have to start over. Therefore it's not a good dive to do if the vis is less than 10 feet or so, because the students will just frustrate themselves, and the objectives of the dive will be unachievable.
The third question is all about the students ... and this one's based on the student's ability to perform under stress. Some students handle low-vis better than others. If the conditions are creating sufficient stress that the student can't keep their mind on what they're doing, it's time to get out of the water and re-evaluate why you're doing it, and whether or not it's worthwhile.
And that brings us to the fourth question ... in whatever class I'm teaching, one of the fundamental principles is that anyone can call a dive for any reason at any time. I want to ingrain in my students that they shouldn't hesitate to call a dive if the conditions push them beyond their comfort zone. So what kind of an example do I want to set to drive that point home? If conditions are beyond what I feel are appropriate for the type of class I'm teaching, I'm going to call the dive and tell the students why. If I push ahead in conditions I don't feel are appropriate for the student, I'm sending a message that if you're uncomfortable with the dive you should try it anyway ... and that's not a message I want my students taking away from any class that I teach.
For all of those reasons, any class dive is going to be conducted or called based on conditions that I feel are appropriate for them ... not for me ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Here is a video of the worst vis day I have been out in in many years, in Palm beach.
The actual vis was about 10 to 20, ranging, due to a big inversion and amazing thermocline..75 degrees to 56 degrees from 40 feet to 55 feet deep. A 16 mm lens creates the illusion you can see much farther than 10 feet....The divers with me on this dive had a terrible time staying with the divemaster...
YouTube - Even on a bad day, diving in Palm Beach is spectacular!
The actual vis was about 10 to 20, ranging, due to a big inversion and amazing thermocline..75 degrees to 56 degrees from 40 feet to 55 feet deep. A 16 mm lens creates the illusion you can see much farther than 10 feet....The divers with me on this dive had a terrible time staying with the divemaster...
YouTube - Even on a bad day, diving in Palm Beach is spectacular!
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I was diving in 1 to 4 foot vis yesterday. March was one of the rainiest months on record in the Seattle area ... and the forecast for the next five days is for more rain. Rivers dumping into Puget Sound right now are at near flood stage, with all the snowmelt and runoff.
Vis sucks so bad I had a couple "where the hell am I" moments ... at a site where I've logged over 500 dives ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Vis sucks so bad I had a couple "where the hell am I" moments ... at a site where I've logged over 500 dives ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Sonic04GT
Contributor
Most of the lakes in TX had a good 4 feet of vis haha Voted 0-2 since I was used to that.
I picked -2 but my sentiment is more like 1-3.
If I'm solo in less than 1 foot of visibility I have a real concern about entanglement, especially in fresh water where limbs and fishing line are posibilities.
Below 1-2 feet with a buddy it's pretty consuming to stay together and I'm not going to see much. If I have reason to believe were traversing an area of poor visibility I'm good with waiting it out. A some point we're diving for the sake of diving and just inviting trouble. Then I may call it a day.
Pete
If I'm solo in less than 1 foot of visibility I have a real concern about entanglement, especially in fresh water where limbs and fishing line are posibilities.
Below 1-2 feet with a buddy it's pretty consuming to stay together and I'm not going to see much. If I have reason to believe were traversing an area of poor visibility I'm good with waiting it out. A some point we're diving for the sake of diving and just inviting trouble. Then I may call it a day.
Pete
I was certified in 5ft visibility. I almost panicked! The ratio of that class was 8:1. When we were positioned underwater I couldn't see anybody (that's what freaked me out). But after that first dive I was fine with it. I'm not an experienced diver at all but I've been back to that lake two or three times with a friend. The 5ft vis was pretty good.
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