Bad vis. How bad is too bad?

[tddfleming]

Jim,

Been reading this thread with interest. As a new diver and someone that was cert. a few weeks back, I chose the 20+. While we had the 20+ on our first OW dives at the quarry, Sunday was a little less. While I did not have any issues with the viz at the time, looking back I can see where issues could have gone a different way. The Padi book stresses the buddy system, and it was brought up in class, just a bit and during OW dives we were paired but not stressed too much. Our class there was 6 for the OW portion. After reading an article in Diving Training about how a class is like herding cats, I can agree. Instead of pairs, it was more like follow the leader. My take may be a little different, as I was taking the class with my 12 yr old daughter. So I was much more stressed than the others. It gave a whole meaning to a hovering mother or helicopter parent. Anyway, when we first started to desend my daughters ears would not clear, so we surfaced, inst and the whole class was gone. Inst did not return for maybe 5-10 min to see what our issue was. Thankfully I was with my daughter, as to have that happen alone and being 12 would have been scary at best. I could tell the inst was getting annoyed with us as we could not get her under without her ears hurting. She did the right thing, but I bet she did not feel like it at the time. Her and I worked on ear clearing that night in the hotel room, read Dans website and the next day got her down without any issues. With the water being pretty clear and an inst cannot keep track of his/her class I can't imagine how bad it would be in low viz. Not to mention when we first were going to go under water for the first time, I was my daughters buddy and she mine. We started away from the entry/exist point at the quarry and another class cut right through ours. While we were under. It stirred up the bottom and everyone in black did not help things. We surfaced as a class right then and I did not see my daughter, I asked the class and no one answered or felt it was an issue, now in kind of a slight panic I went back under to see it I could see her, nothing, I surfaced, asked again, asked the inst. as which point he joined me in trying to find her. Point being inst did not notice, class did not notice, only me, her mom and buddy. I finally saw her, she had thought she was following a guy from our class over to the shore, when she surfaced she realized it was not that guy and know she is trying to find our group. Needless to say, OW class was very stressful for us.

Even after all of this, she wants to go on to AOW and I told her that she HAD to take rescue. No if and or buts. I will do the same. I will and have started to look for a new LDS and inst. I have visited more dive shops than I ever wanted to. Talked to them. My husband will be the first to do the AOW with the new shop, my daughter wants to do it with him in Nov. I will wait until spring. I do not like cold.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I am going to hijack this right here for bit. My thread I can do it to address tddfleming. I would strongly advise that neither you, your daughter, or your husband do AOW so soon. Especially youir daughter. Had you been in my class you'd have been taught what proper buddy procedures were and been required to follow them from start to finish. You and your daughter would not have been out of my sight if that meant making other students wait or taken you in as a pair. If the instructor was getting annoyed with you he is a jerk and a lousy instructor. If your daughter was going to do another class with me I;d insist on her doing a couple more dives with me and then taking a class that would reinforce buddy skills while building her confidence and skills in relatively shallow water. I would recommend my UW Nav class. Buddy skills strictly enforced and enhanced by working as a team. Then I would recommend rescue for her and you. I'd wait until those were done and then do the AOW. If I had to go on what you just stated she is in no way ready for any AOW course and in fact would consider it reckless to put her in one at this time. If you;d like mroe info on why I feel this way and the route I;d take with you feel free to PM me.

 

[tddfleming]

Jim: Thanks for the reply. I also did PM you. You have cleared up something that I have been struggling with here. As I thought you could only do OW, AOW then rescue. in that order. I was wrong again, which is OK. I am wrong quite a bit. I will take your advise and go at this another way. Start with the nav. then rescure then move on from there, when I am comfortable. I was even holding her hand under the water, she was not real happy with that, but I felt better. Hard to check your spg and do things. I was simply trying to say after all of that, she still wanted to go on with scuba. Looking back I am not sure how or why, but she does. Sorry to hijack this, it was not my intentions, I just wanted to express why I choice 20+ feet for viz and how I could see how fast things could go wrong even with good viz.

 

[gNats]

Jim: Thanks for the reply. I also did PM you. You have cleared up something that I have been struggling with here. As I thought you could only do OW, AOW then rescue. in that order. I was wrong again, which is OK. I am wrong quite a bit. I will take your advise and go at this another way. Start with the nav. then rescure then move on from there, when I am comfortable. I was even holding her hand under the water, she was not real happy with that, but I felt better. Hard to check your spg and do things. I was simply trying to say after all of that, she still wanted to go on with scuba. Looking back I am not sure how or why, but she does. Sorry to hijack this, it was not my intentions, I just wanted to express why I choice 20+ feet for viz and how I could see how fast things could go wrong even with good viz.

I'm hijaking this thread now.

MOM- Do you and your daughter a favor and give HER the greatest gift you can. Take a step back and let her take a step forward.

In the long run, big picture - you two may end up the bestest dive buddies known to mommyhood. And, how cool! Think of the memories you will be building while you are off diving together and she is a boy crazy teenager!

But, you need to let her become her own diver, even at 12. If you feel she is too immature - then I think every instructor will agree - she shouldn't be diving.

This is not uncommon when family members learn and progress together. Hear me out. It is most commonly seen in Husband/Wife teams.

The wife naturally acquiesces all control and responsibility to the husband. This forum is OVERRUN with stories of husband's setting up their wife's dive gear, deciding the dive plan, leading the dive. There is more than one man on this forum that has admitted to purchasing wireless air integrated computers for his wife and then wear the computer himself! :shocked2:

Now, either these wives are HAPPY and CONTENT to give their husband's that amount of control and responsibility over their lives, or they are not all that interested in diving, or they suffer from huge inferiority complexes OR they are unable to say, "Me DO."

Your daughter is saying me do. Let her. All the way, let her do it all herself, aside from you. Let her understand the gear. Plan the dives. Recognize the risk.

I know in your heart, you want her to be confident, self-supporting, and a strong level-headed diver.

here is the best advice on accomplishing that:

Find her another dive buddy. Yep. For the time being, hire a responsible DM with references to meet her at the dive site and mentor and dive with her. Drop her off, grab your book, and hit a park bench.

It will do WONDERS for her confidence and overall dive progression.

I strongly recommend this advice to all diving couples. I follow my own advice. My bf and I will often dive with other people as buddies on the same dive and will dive with others alone. He is my best friend and dive buddy, but we need to dive with others to stay focused on being the best buddy possible.

Also, you should find YOUR OWN dive buddy. The same benefits she will realize, you will also experience. Think of how much better YOUR diving skills will become if you are not focusing on HER but on youself.

Your new instructor, local dive clubs, and LDS should be able to provide recommendations to divers that are kind, calm, patient, and above all, follow safe diving practices.

Ps - if you're really a nice mommy, you'll find her an uber cute DM. Oh, wait, probably not a good idea.

 

[tddfleming]

I get it, and I hear you, but first I need to make sure she will not kill herself. I asked her the other day, as I opened the car door. "If your reg started to free flow what would you do? She could not come up with an answer. As for maturity. She is more mature than many adults I see. She has much better judgements calls than many also. I just know that I want her to be a safe and good diver and make good decisions in the water. However, I want to see if the next inst will keep an eye on her in the water or just leave her at the surface until they figure out she is missing from the pack as did the last one. This LDS came with high praise. I would hate to see one that did not. Thankfully we are both comfortable in the water and did not bother us to just float there. Were used to falling off our knee board or skis and just hanging out until the boat can get back to us. My biggest job right now is make sure she is trained well, and can handle herself. I wil talk to the next inst and see where we stand. Sorry Jim, I started something here.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

No problem. This is what I want to see. I want people to think and not just blindly follow the advice of their instructor no matter who they are. Including me! Diving is not about being led. It's about being an independent thinker who develops good judgment. I don't want to dive with or train sheep. Note that some agencies do require AOW before rescue. Find an instructor who teaches for one that does not. Rescue should IMO come before AOW if rescue skills have not been taught in OW including supporting a diver at the surface, unconscious diver from depth, and panicked diver at the surface ( all are in my OW class by standards). An AOW course should also include rescue skills as part of it.

 

[gNats]

I would still pose the argument that Rescue should wait until the OW student has had ample experience in the water outside of the classroom.

How can you be expected to learn skills to save someone else when you can barely control your own bouyancy?

If the original OW instructor failed to give ample instruction, I would recommend to TDDFLeming that her family take a refresher OW course with the new instructor. Chances are, however, she received the information she needs, she just doesn't have the time in the water experience.

If that is the case, then hiring a DM to mentor and remind you of what was in the book is the next best thing. Or, maybe you will meet an experienced local diver that enjoys mentoring.

Bottom line: Whether her instructor left her at the surface or not, she has the book and everything - everything she needs to know is in that book. Re-read the book.

Then go diving. Nice shallow dives within 20 feet of the surface. Practice. Practice. Practice.

I am really surprised that any instructor would recommend a brand new OW student take rescue without any real diving experience. How can a newbie perform in water CPR AND remove gear, and call out instructions if they are still dinking around with their own self-confidence in scuba?

Do a sufficient search pattern without being able to control bouyancy?

I am all for advanced training. I am collecting my own stack of purdy cards. But, not brand new out the gate.

TddFleming: My original advice still holds. Find a mentor buddy diver. Go diving. Ask questions. Understand why 4 lbs of weight on your hips will affect trim differently than 4 lbs of weights on your tanks.

Rescue is a FUN course. But, it is heavily heavily task loaded. At one point during the training, you will be required to FIND a person who is unresponsive, bring that person to the surface, and begin performing continuous do-not-stop CPR on that person WHILE you remove all of his gear and your gear. The entire time, swiming the towards shore or boat.

Think about all of those activities. That is one test. Not, find the person. Good. Now do CPR. Good. Now take gear off. Good. Now swim to shore. Good.

It is one continuous activity start to finish.

Think about bringing an unresponsive person who may be much larger than you to the surface. If you are unable to surface SLOWLY AND SAFELY without having to use the line or look at your computer, how can you perform this task?

Because, I would be surprised if the almost dead guy was at the bottom of a nice taunt upline. it happens, but I don't think it is the intent of the excercise.

These are some of the skills you should have mastered by the time you take rescue. Or, you are just creating an opportunity to become the other victim.

Additional training is only beneficial (IMHO) if you have a solid foundation in which to build the new skills. Without that foundation, you are simply building a stack of playing cards and one error will cause a chain reaction of further errors that the diver will not be able to handle. You have to master each level presented before climbing.

Personally, I think that is why there are so many unsound divers AND instructors. C'mon. We all know at least one person who got his (her) OW loved it and in one year became an instructor.

SERIOIUSLY? C'Mon?! But it is true. Fast tracking is a possibility in this sport. But, who is suffering? The instructor's students who may have more experience than the instructor? Or the dive buddy who says, "My friend has a stack of cards but ran out of air on yesterday's dive and then almost jettisoned to the surface while holding on to me!"



Go diving!!

 

[knowone]

Thanks gNats.
You already get thanked enough Jim Lapenta.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

First of all everything she needs to know is NOT in that book if it's the one I also have from my OW class. Buddy skills are not gone into nearly enough, there is no mention of the rescue skills I noted that should be included in the OW class, and the book cannot and does not teach proper weighting for trim. It also does not include instructions on non silting kicks. All of which ARE included in the OW class I and others teach. If you look at my profile page the two young ladies on my right each brought up myself AND the guy with the less than full head of hair (their dad) in the back from the bottom of the pool as we simulated unconsciousness. They each also towed us while removing gear, and got control of us while we were "panicking". One is 12 the other 16. This is however the result of a class based on skills and education that requires 16 hours in the pool and 16 in the classroom. They also in their OW checkouts never broke proper buddy formation and instinctively moved closer to each other when vis went down.

Are these skills unusual in a weekeend wonder cert? Yep. But the norm in all of my classes. As for the tow while rescue breathing- unless one does this all the time it is a very difficult skill to get right. Even in rescue classes I've been dunked as a vic more times than I can count by someone not used to doing this. A new diver does not need to know how to get this exactly right but they do need to know how to get my butt to shore and ready to extract from the water with the help available. I also fully expect the breathing while towing to be made less important than just getting the vic onto shore where real rescue breathing and CPR efforts can be done based on the latest info about this. Or at least into water where the rescuer can stand.

In addition at the OW level I teach two person rescue and buddy teams acting as real teams. And in the post about continuous cpr being done while towing? This is not true. It is only rescue breathing. CPR cannot begin until the vic is on solid ground. IN short if an OW diver is incapable of providing even basic help to a buddy as noted I don't put them in OW and will not dive with someone who cannot do this.

 

[tddfleming]

gNat:

Thanks for the advise, as I have raised 2 girls already, this is my third one. While I agree with the practice and getting a mentor. I do think it would be reckless of me to just throw her to the wolves. She is 12, which still means that she is a kid and I am responsible for her. In realty, I am not a hover mother, all my kids have more than plenty of space to make up their own minds and do as the they feel is correct. By no means perfect.

As for the quote: Bottom line: Whether her instructor left her at the surface or not, she has the book and everything - everything she needs to know is in that book. Re-read the book.I do not agree with this. If that were the case then why waste the money paying an inst. in the first place? Why re-take the class, why enroll in any other scuba classes? It would just be a waste of money, since all I have to do is just buy the books and videos online. Why waste my money when I went to college, heck I can just buy the books and read them? I think there is much to be learned from a good inst. But I am glad and I can now tell her that her dreams of becoming a marine bio, that she does not have to go to school now, I will just buy her some of the marine books from Amazon. I just saved myself a bunch of $$$$$. While this had been made in jest, I do get what you are saying. We both just have a difference in opionions on how I should keep her diving.