Bad service and safety in Indonesia...

[Bali Diver]

@DevonDiver Points still missed and it's not about divers,every diver should be fully aware of their responsibility.What we are saying what you should expect from a Dive OP and a dive region in question

I say go to Komodo and have a word with a guide,get your boat and then dive Komodo,more so the difficult sites,around full moon will be more fun for you and conditions can change even quicker,make sure that you are able to find a good guide and one who is very experienced of the area.enjoy the wonderful surface currents from the boat.please don't ask me to be your buddy as i would prefer to be surface support and after 5 day's diving tell me what you think,tell me then maybe it's a good idea and better to have a good OP and boat and a good experienced guide of the area and if you don't then i will give up diving as i got it WRONG !!!!

As stated above once you have done this,then i would be interested in your reply and i am sure i won't have to give up diving

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Wow ... all I can say is that I had close to 2,000 dives when I dived Komodo ... including a bunch of staged decompression dives in excess of 200 feet and a bunch of dives in pretty challenging conditions here at home ... and there were some dive sites we did there that I would not have wanted to do without having an experienced guide along.

I'm usually pretty opposed to guided dives ... mostly out of a "leave me alone and let me do my own thing" personality ... but I can think of at least a couple of dives that, had someone who knew the sites not been along to let us know where NOT to go, we'd have most likely gotten swept. One was a double-pinnacle, where it would've been easy to come upslope at the wrong place and ended up downcurrent of the boat, and the other was a tiny island where if you didn't turn at just the right place it was REAL easy to end up getting swept away from the structure before you could do a thing about it.

Both of those were incredible dives ... but I think that we had that experience because each group of three or four divers was accompanied by someone who absolutely knew these sites. It was one of the few times in my life when I was glad they were there.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Bali Diver]

@NWGratefulDiver you comments end this subject for me and yes at times a left or a right turn or going to far can be the WRONG decision.

Both of those were incredible dives ... but I think that we had that experience because each group of three or four divers was accompanied by someone who absolutely knew these sites. It was one of the few times in my life when I was glad they were there

Yes NWGratefulDiver no matter how many dives or how good we think we are,sometimes we need a helping hand and guidance

I really love the surface currents and rips you see all around from the surface,wonderful.But sure makes you wake up and listen carefully to a experienced guide,no matter how experience or good you think you are

I have even seen good boats struggle in the surface currents and never seen surface currents and rips like in Komodo anywhere else.especially in S/E Asia

 

[DevonDiver]

@DevonDiver Points still missed and it's not about divers,every diver should be fully aware of their responsibility.What we are saying what you should expect from a Dive OP and a dive region in question

I must be missing something, or we are talking at cross-purposes.

I've stated what I expect from a Dive Op/Guide. I've stated what I consider to be my responsibilities as a diver.

In a nutshell; I expect a Dive Op/Guide to provide local knowledge and an outline plan for a dive.

Local knowledge: A dive map and briefing on hazards and attractions of the site. For instance; I would want prior warning about the existence of strong currents and where to expect them. I wouldn't rely entirely on that briefing though - as I prefer to plan for all contingencies and I have the knowledge, experience and training to anticipate where and when certain hazards might occur.

I apply my own knowledge to this information. From experience/training, I know that strong currents are likely in shallow(er) channels between islands/atolls which drop-off into deep water and have tidal water flows. I know that down currents can develop where water flows over a wall or terrain feature. I can look at a dive map and predict where (and when - given knowledge of prevailing tides) where the current will flow. In the water, I can recognise the signs of water movement in relation to the topography. I can see how marine life activity/type, coral and vegetation growth..and even bottom composition are shaped/developed by contact with strong water movements...and where they aren't. I can judge the increase or decrease of water movement in a given area, or changes in such as I move into different areas - and I can anticipate if that water movement will get stronger or weaker.

I also anticipate the unexpected - so ensure that I have contingency plans to deal with unforeseen conditions. I make sure that these contingency plans fit with those of the Dive Op. i.e. If I do get swept by current, I can relax because I know that I will deploy a DSMB in a timely manner and the Dive Op will track this and pick me up wherever I surface.

Outline Plan: Max time, Max depth, Route (if guided) and any specific procedures or protocols used by that operator. These could include: diver recall method, actions on lost diver, ascent procedures (inc. use of DSMB), boat entry/exit, water entry/descent etc etc. The reason for this plan is so that I can still control and plan my own dive within the outline provided - and so that both myself and the Dive Op/Guide can predict each others responses to any given scenario.

I say go to Komodo and have a word with a guide,get your boat and then dive Komodo,more so the difficult sites,around full moon will be more fun for you and conditions can change even quicker,make sure that you are able to find a good guide and one who is very experienced of the area.enjoy the wonderful surface currents from the boat.please don't ask me to be your buddy as i would prefer to be surface support and after 5 day's diving tell me what you think,tell me then maybe it's a good idea and better to have a good OP and boat and a good experienced guide of the area and if you don't then i will give up diving as i got it WRONG !!!!

As stated above once you have done this,then i would be interested in your reply and i am sure i won't have to give up diving

I've done expeditionary diving... so I'm relatively familiar with not having reliance on local knowledge (because in some places, there is none).

I do agree that a local guide is invaluable and makes the task easier. I disagree that it is critical - if the diver has the appropriate skills, training and knowledge for the dives.

As you say, Komodo is synonymous with high currents (as are many places that I've dived). That's no barrier for me, with or without a guide. It should be for other divers who don't have that training/experience.

Having a DM/guide isn't a substitute for a lack of personal training/experience.

A good DM/guide certainly adds benefits. Lack of one shouldn't be critical though. If it is, the diver is probably diving beyond their capabilities.

I think that (going back to the original complaint/report in this thread) it is irresponsible for the divers concerned to have gone to a location that is famous for strong currents, without any clue how to deal with those currents, and been content to dive with a guide to act as their babysitter/protector. This was nothing more than a 'trust me' dive.

Whether the DM/guide was untrustworthy shouldn't matter in regards to safety. Losing the DM/guide should be a contingency that every diver plans for and considers in their personal risk assessment.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Christ, Andy ... can you POSSIBLY be any more condescending? Not everyone's got your mad skillz, yanno ... which is good for you, because otherwise you'd never make any money teaching them.

Risk assessment's all well and good ... and I guess when you're a tech instructor and exploration diver you can get by without any damn help from anybody ... but all the other divers on the planet need a bit of context ... and some guidance from someone who knows what to expect when they hit waters in places they've never been before.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DevonDiver]

Christ, Andy ... can you POSSIBLY be any more condescending? Not everyone's got your mad skillz, yanno ... which is good for you, because otherwise you'd never make any money teaching them.

It's not "mad skillz"... just appropriate ones for how/where I dive....and they were addressed at a very early stage in my diving development. It's more about mindset, irrelevant of experience,...and I am sure you would support that concept.

My first experience with strong currents was in the Maldives. I was AOW diver with about 45 dives. There were 'novice' sites and 'advanced' sites. The advanced sites were designated as such due to strong current/tidal flow between atolls - but these were the sites where the big critters were. I didn't feel sufficiently capable to do them at the time - so I addressed that. I took a 'Drift Diver' course to ensure I had the knowledge and techniques needed to deal with those conditions. I subsequently dived those sites in confidence. It was a very valuable course.

That experience was expanded when I took the BSAC Sports Diver course in the UK. I was taught safe techniques for UK diving, including how to understand and predict tidal flows..and their relation to bottom topography. Again, a basic course, but very valuable.

Where my current experience really comes into play is in my mindset. That mindset is that I take personal responsibility for my diving and safety. I don't sit on a dive boat and wait to be told what I need to know... I don't mindlessly follow a DM in the water and hope they'll look after me. It's not something that you need 1000 dives or professional/technical training to develop...

Having that mindset means that I apply the training, knowledge and experience I've accumulated. I engage my brain before and during diving. I recognise my weaknesses..and I address them. I don't rely on a third party to substitute any deficits on my behalf.

It's hard to predict how posts appear to others via the internet - but that isn't arrogance or condescension (if we were having this discussion face-to-face over a coffee, it'd be more apparent, I am sure). It's just valid advice for a diver of any skill or experience level...and a mindset that I see lacking in the original report - and a mindset deficit that I see as a trend within the scuba community. I'm trying to address that issue - which is why my posts present an alternative perspective to those that level blame at the dive operation mentioned in the OP.

Risk assessment's all well and good ... and I guess when you're a tech instructor and exploration diver you can get by without any damn help from anybody ... but all the other divers on the planet need a bit of context ... and some guidance from someone who knows what to expect when they hit waters in places they've never been before.

I didn't say that I didn't need help. I do find that expert local advice is invaluable. That's what I mean by 'provision of local knowledge'. It can be from a dive guide (normally)... but it could also be from local fishermen...a book... the internet... shipping maps... whatever. The crux is that I don't get in the water without understanding what I might encounter - because only then can I confirm that I have the capabilities to do that dive. If I don't have the capabilities, then I'll either address that, or I won't do that dive. That principle was as valid when I was an AOW diver as it is now.

I also believe that experience and training can provide knowledge, techniques and procedures that are transferable amongst similar conditions. That's context.

There is training commonly available that addresses the issue of diving in strong currents. Not seeking that training..and then relying on a dive guide as a substitute for that deficit is the fault of the diver. That's something I understood (or was lucky enough to be trained to understand) at a very early stage in my diving career... long before Scubaboard was created and the term 'trust me dive' was invented.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It's not "mad skillz"... just appropriate ones for how/where I dive....and they were addressed at a very early stage in my diving development. It's more about mindset, irrelevant of experience,...and I am sure you would support that concept.

... but this thread isn't all about what you or I would do. And I also support people who guide "tourists" for a living being somewhat skilled and professional ... particularly when they're taking folks into dangerous waters ...

My first experience with strong currents was in the Maldives. I was AOW diver with about 45 dives. There were 'novice' sites and 'advanced' sites. The advanced sites were designated as such due to strong current/tidal flow between atolls - but these were the sites where the big critters were. I didn't feel sufficiently capable to do them at the time - so I addressed that. I took a 'Drift Diver' course to ensure I had the knowledge and techniques needed to deal with those conditions. I subsequently dived those sites in confidence. It was a very valuable course.

That experience was expanded when I took the BSAC Sports Diver course in the UK. I was taught safe techniques for UK diving, including how to understand and predict tidal flows..and their relation to bottom topography. Again, a basic course, but very valuable.

Those courses would not have helped you much at some of the sites I experienced in Komodo. "Drift diving" doesn't cover washing machine currents that can turn you every which way but loose, and pull you too far from a boat to be seen in the time it takes you to surface ... if, in fact, the current allows you to surface at all.

Where my current experience really comes into play is in my mindset. That mindset is that I take personal responsibility for my diving and safety. I don't sit on a dive boat and wait to be told what I need to know... I don't mindlessly follow a DM in the water and hope they'll look after me. It's not something that you need 1000 dives or professional/technical training to develop...

Having that mindset means that I apply the training, knowledge and experience I've accumulated. I engage my brain before and during diving. I recognise my weaknesses..and I address them. I don't rely on a third party to substitute any deficits on my behalf.

It's hard to predict how posts appear to others via the internet - but that isn't arrogance or condescension (if we were having this discussion face-to-face over a coffee, it'd be more apparent, I am sure). It's just valid advice for a diver of any skill or experience level...and a mindset that I see lacking in the original report - and a mindset deficit that I see as a trend within the scuba community. I'm trying to address that issue - which is why my posts present an alternative perspective to those that level blame at the dive operation mentioned in the OP.

I understand where you're coming from ... but the manner in which you're doing so has lost the message in a static of superiority. It's like one of those old GI3 rants ... the only thing missing is the colorful terms for the hapless soul who dared bring it up.

I didn't say that I didn't need help. I do find that expert local advice is invaluable. That's what I mean by 'provision of local knowledge'. It can be from a dive guide (normally)... but it could also be from local fishermen...a book... the internet... shipping maps... whatever. The crux is that I don't get in the water without understanding what I might encounter - because only then can I confirm that I have the capabilities to do that dive. If I don't have the capabilities, then I'll either address that, or I won't do that dive. That principle was as valid when I was an AOW diver as it is now.

Quite so ... and what I took out of the OP was that the level of information needed wasn't forthcoming. Andy, people die when dive professionals say "don't worry about it". Sometimes it's well-intentioned ... meant to be reassuring ... other times it's just to cover up a level of incompetence that just shouldn't be tolerated in a dive professional. There are times when the only appropriate local knowledge is "this site isn't appropriate for your skill level" ... that information seemed to be missing in this particular case, and could've gotten somebody killed. Sorry, but in those cases, the diver isn't to blame ... the dive professional is ... because they shouldn't have gone there in the first place.

I also believe that experience and training can provide knowledge, techniques and procedures that are transferable amongst similar conditions. That's context.

You still have to have a clue what conditions to expect before jumping in the water ... because once there, you HAVE to deal with it ...

There is training commonly available that addresses the issue of diving in strong currents. Not seeking that training..and then relying on a dive guide as a substitute for that deficit is the fault of the diver. That's something I understood (or was lucky enough to be trained to understand) at a very early stage in my diving career... long before Scubaboard was created and the term 'trust me dive' was invented.

ScubaBoard didn't create that term. And no matter how skilled, or now prepared you are, every time you dive someplace you've never been before you're doing a "trust me" dive ... even if what you're trusting is dumb luck.

There's another saying that's appropriate to such situations ... "You don't know what you don't know" ... that's why you hire a guide.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Centrals]

Taking inexperieced/ill-equipped etc etc divers to sites which are NOT suitable for them happen everyday!!!!
It is the dive operator responsibility to make sure that the sites are suitable to the divers concerned. The diver(tourist) would not have any first hand or much knowledge about it. Most recreational divers are jus that ie. holiday divers. Their survival skills in hostile environmental in pretty limited. How many OW/AOW divers would inflate their BC and kicking hard on ascend? They all had been taught to deflate the bc and ascend and why would they act otherwise? Unless they came across down current and survived!!
How would you quantify "experienced"? I do not know.

 

[Centrals]

Christ, Andy ... can you POSSIBLY be any more condescending?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Spot on.

 

[DevonDiver]

... but this thread isn't all about what you or I would do. And I also support people who guide "tourists" for a living being somewhat skilled and professional ... particularly when they're taking folks into dangerous waters ...

Agreed.

I was asked to share my experiences and how I would deal with it, which I did. I didn't intend for that to sound condescending, so I sincerely apologise if it did.

I just felt that there was a solution - one that I have used consistently for years - which is also common-sense and in line with what divers are taught from the very first stages of dive education.

Those courses would not have helped you much at some of the sites I experienced in Komodo. "Drift diving" doesn't cover washing machine currents that can turn you every which way but loose, and pull you too far from a boat to be seen in the time it takes you to surface ... if, in fact, the current allows you to surface at all.

So, what is the solution? Not dive there? Play the odds and hope you stay lucky?

The issue of being separated from a boat by current is dealt with in the drift diver course (at least as I was taught). Knowing the risk, you can pre-empt the situation by popping a DSMB prior to ascent. In the worst case, popping a DSMB during the dive, so that the boat can track you continually.

Washing machine currents - yes, they are dangerous...and it requires experience, calmness and a level-head. That's where risk assessment comes into it. If a diver isn't confident about diving in places where those currents can occur (without warning), then they should avoid those sites altogether.

Now... I know the likely response..."what if the Divemaster doesn't tell you about those risks?".

Well... that's the crux of what I've been saying. A diver must ensure they have knowledge to complete a risk assessment and choose appropriate sites that are within their capabilities. When I go on a diving vacation, I don't leave it in the hands of the DM.... I'll do my own research.

I just spent (literally) 60 seconds on Google:

http://www.komodonationalpark.org/dive_sites.htm

SCUBA Travel: Dive Sites of Indonesia - Sulawesi, Irian Jaya, Komodo, Lombok, Alor...
Novice divers beware: the beauty of Komodo Island hides a deadly current - Times Online
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/indonesia/190078-labuanbajo-komodo-trip-report.html

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/indonesia/283653-komodo-trip-report.html

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/indonesia/352463-komodo-trip-report-august-2010-a.html

Ok...so strong currents 'are' an issue... so the novice diver goes back on Google again...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPOB07V7xOI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tykp5dJGtv4

The Washing Machine - Extreme Drift Diving - YouTube

Dealing With Underwater Currents When Scuba Diving
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/advanced-scuba-discussions/357797-handling-down-current.html

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/48956-what-proper-procedure-downcurrent-4.html

etc etc etc


Yes, the divemaster should be good. The divemaster should brief you on everything you need to know.

Should the diver rely on that? Do they have to rely on it?

Quite so ... and what I took out of the OP was that the level of information needed wasn't forthcoming.

Which goes back to the need to check for yourself. Do some research. Second opinions.

Forewarned is forearmed.

Andy, people die when dive professionals say "don't worry about it". Sometimes it's well-intentioned ... meant to be reassuring ... other times it's just to cover up a level of incompetence that just shouldn't be tolerated in a dive professional.

Absolutely.

Although it does remind me of my Mom asking me as a child... "if you're friends told you to jump off a bridge, would you?"

Some divers allow themselves to be placated like that. They seek it. They have genuine concerns... but they want to do X.Y,Z dive... so they look for someone in 'authority' to sanction what they know to be wrong.

Which is why I am trying to encourage a less reliant, more pro-active approach.

Hit any of the links I've posted above... and the diver will know that they "should worry about it". More so... they'll know what they should be worrying about...and where they should be worrying about.

So.. when they get there...and the DM is negligent in his risk assessment - then the divers aren't reliant on it... they have the capacity to form their own assessment. At the very least they'll know to get a second opinion.

There are times when the only appropriate local knowledge is "this site isn't appropriate for your skill level" ... that information seemed to be missing in this particular case, and could've gotten somebody killed.

And yet... a 60 second Google search revealed it. So would a chat with other divers at the centre. Or with the boatman. Or at nearby dive centres. Or on an internet forum...

If they went to Komodo... they they should know that certain sites require advanced skills. They should get a briefing of the dive site (if not, alarm bells should ring)..and that brief should include issues with currents. They know to clarify that. If necessary.. to demand that information.

...and then...they should make their own judgement on the suitability of the site.

Sorry, but in those cases, the diver isn't to blame ... the dive professional is ... because they shouldn't have gone there in the first place.

I'll concede and compromise... both parties are to blame.

A diver can educate themselves before they choose a dive site to visit...before get on the boat....hell, even before they get to the country.

Who's fault is it that they opt not to do that... but rather, just trust the judgement of a stranger? Especially when that judgement seems to fly in the face of every recommendation they've been given in training...and their common sense...and their natural concerns?

Of course - a professional dive operation shouldn't take divers into sites that are beyond their capabilities. However, assuming the dive operation doesn't know those divers capabilities... then they have to expect that individual divers will take responsibility for their own safety and apply their own common sense to the decision of where is safe for them to dive.

So, what's the alternative? A dive operator tells the customers that they cannot be allowed to go to X,Y and Z dive sites because they don't have...what? The experience? The training?

It's a fair point.. that is what should happen...but we (dive pros) all know how some customers respond to that 'guidance'.

"Do a Drift Dive/AOW/appropriate course? OMG! What a scam... Put Another Dollar In...!"

"Do a check dive/scuba review? OMG! What a scam... "

"Stay in the shallow beginners sites? OMG! What a scam... "

Chances are (from my experience) that the divers who complain loudest (and publicly on the internet) about having a bad experience underwater are the ones who most objected to getting the right training to do the dive concerned.

You still have to have a clue what conditions to expect before jumping in the water ... because once there, you HAVE to deal with it ...

As I said.... 60 seconds on Google. Buy a local dive guide (book). Talk to other divers... there's a wealth of resources available.

What I'm objecting to is 'blindly' following a dive guide. Thoughtlessly accepting a capability-based risk assessment from someone who cannot possibly know your capabilities. Going to a site/region/country without understanding the nature of the diving there.

Again.. it isn't about "wild skillz"... it's a matter of common sense... and accepting that diving has dangers... and that different dangers exist in different locations...and making sure you, as an individual, understand those dangers....and acting accordingly...taking responsibility for yourself.

Safety Vs Enjoyment

The other issue that I want to address (hopefully without making this post toooo long) is that the original report complained of dangers. There's always dangers. There's always the unexpected. Assuming otherwise..and then crying foul when you are proved wrong... isn't the fault of the dive operation. That's just a mindset issue. In the OP's linked report, the divers felt they were in danger.

Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. For certain, they were outside of their comfort zone... and they didn't enjoy the dive because of that. Who's fault is that?

A dive pro can make a decision about dive safety...and offer advice/guidance along those lines. What they cannot do is mind-read every customer and understand where their psychological thresholds and comfort zones are.

There's a difference between actual safety and the individual's psychological perception of safety.

I've taken customers on dives that they were well qualified and experienced to complete. Safety wasn't an issue. I briefed those divers well and supervised them effectively in the water. Regardless of that, some of those divers still didn't feel confident on the dive. Some communicate that...and we amend the dive plan accordingly during the dive (or abort). Some don't say anything until afterwards. Some (thankfully, not to me) don't say anything at all... until they next get online and then assassinate the dive operator.