Bad service and safety in Indonesia...

[DevonDiver]

I aggree on most that Devon Diver says, however, if they where relatively unexperienced (which we do not know) they might have needed a bit more support in making the right choises and maybe the dive sites that was chooses should not have been chooses due to the level of dificulty.

Which would still be their responsibility to communicate to the dive operation.

If inexperienced, and incapable of remembering/applying their training, then they should have had a review or check-out dive.

Everyone is certified to dive on his own, but some only got their 4 + 4 dives from the OW course and that does not make anyone a good diver!

Which is why those divers should pay special attention to applying what they learnt in training. If they cannot, then they have a responsibility to address that deficit with remedial training. There are processes for that.

Just a little support in chosing the correct equipment and maybe some other dive site choises and those tourists would have been happy (well at least not raging..). So it is also up to the dive shop to plan according to their customers knowledge and training.

Checking the functionality of your dive equipment in advance isn't a 'dive skill'... it's just common sense.

Don't leave it until you are on the boat/at the dive site before addressing issues such as; kit functionality, selection of appropriate dive site or communication about your comfort zone/capabilities.

To hit a female in the face !!!!!!!!
If that was the case then Danny you are a !@#$%^&*. No excuse whatsoever.

you got to be kidding !! just becourse he know some one in the police he can threat people like that and get away with it..
amazing !

This part seems a bit implausible to me. At the least it seems like a very one-sided account.

If they weren't happy with the service, they could have refused to dive. Most dive operations charge for a dive once you enter the water. If they had an intention not to pay, or where concerned about safety, then they should have made that clear at the time and stayed on the boat.

Frankly, I don't buy this story about the police siding with the dive operator. They would have considered the issue of law... and the law states you pay for services which you use. They had the opportunity (responsibility) to not use those services if they were dissatisfied, but they chose to continue regardless.

Yes, the dive operator could have shown better customer service and offered a discount or other incentive to placate them. We don't know if he did try to do that or not. Their attitude in confronting him would also determine how much he cared to appease them. I'd always seek to address a customer complaint, but I wouldn't have the motivation to assist customers who were rude or aggressive to me or my staff.

As for the woman being struck. This seems very implausible - especially as it is described in the report. Physical contact in any circumstances rarely happens without extreme provocation and/or for self-defence. Again... the story seems very one-sided and I strongly doubt that it happened as described.

 

[vladimir]

I read that article and I can't help notice that the divers' concerned took no responsibility for their own safety...

I started to compose a similar post, though not as eloquent, and then I thought, "the guy punched a woman in the face." If that is true, that is all I need to know about him and his dive operation.

The two divers, though, really do need to reassess their attitude, training, and choice of divespots. Everybody wants to do the marquee dives. And generally you will be able to find somebody to escort you on them, but, as we saw at Nusa Penida this week, that doesn't mean they can get you home. You have to honestly assess your own ability, fitness, and experience before you take on challenging dives.

 

[PeterVV]

Report the divecenter to the agency it is attached to. With a bad report like this he will be close to getting kicked out.

 

[martinskarin]

it's just common sense.
]

I think this is in many cases the problem, common sense is lacking in too many people, not only while diving. I guess that is thing the operators need to have in mind too.. if this operator had it, he would not have got all this bad reputation over internet, I think most of it is likely not deserved.

I myself would not expect the operator to make sure I had my equipment in order, I do that myself, even when they change the tank on the BC I check that it is attached properly etc.

There are many bad divers around that do not have comon sense nor the proper knowledge (maybe once but they forgot it) to be able to dive safely, but still they think they can.. I learned that from reading this board only a few hours.

Now we do not know what they told the operation and not. But is it also not in the operators interest in not having bad reputation and maybe fatalities due to that a diver does not tell their experience and follow to a dive they cannot handle? A little like what have been in this case. Like checking log books etc?

I totally do think that in this case it is more the divers fault than the operator, still he gets the reputation and could maybe have prevented it.

 

[DevonDiver]

Report the divecenter to the agency it is attached to. With a bad report like this he will be close to getting kicked out.

Unlikely.

The agency would investigate the claim and listen to the dive operators side of the story (which we haven't had here). Their primary concern would be safety. Agencies don't tend to get involved in instances of 'customer service' dissatisfaction.

If the dive operator's statement admitted to, or illustrated, any breaches of safety or other defined standard, then the agency would recommend improvements.

If concerned, the agency might also contact/quality audit previous, existing and future students at the dive centre to ensure that standards are being met. This is a fair and balanced way to confirm adherence to standards, which doesn't rely on a claim by a single party.

Most agency standards apply only to training courses. As this wasn't a training course, then very few agency imposed standards apply.

 

[similandiver]

Okay...I have to speak carefully as I work at a dive shop in this same town (can't change my user name). As what can be considered a competitor I should not refer to standards or such...


I can say that the deal with the police is 100% correct. I am not that familiar with the Philippines, but the extent of cronyism and corruption is similar according to rumors I have heard. The police in Labuan Bajo (and much of Indonesia) are corrupt and as a local operator - anyone, especially a local, will certainly be the police's friend. Please do remember that this is not just 3rd world, but the far, far third world.

I can also speak to the local conditions. Komodo has some of the strongest currents in the world. Reaching 8 knots in several places. This is where an inexperienced guide can really put people at risk. The only dive operators that use inexperienced guides are the super budget shops. Guides here must not only know the sites, but the tides, the local conditions and read this from the surface. I am sure you have read the stories about the divers that drifted several kilometers, ended up on the beach and were found 17 hours later - that was the OWNER of a local dive shop

Just as much - experienced guides can choose sites that are completely free of currents and still offer great diving - nay incredible diving. So it does boil down to the guide.

These guys seem to have asked about the conditions and the experience of the guides before going on the trip - they were assured that they would get someone who knew the sites and conditions. This sounds like they actually did try to prepare for the trip - but they were misled.

I know that all the people on this board are experienced and wise about going to new locations, but not many people understand that such remote locations carry certain risks (the nearest chamber is in Bali...one hour flight..yups...flight).

I do not know if the person was actually struck by the owner or not - I do not know the owner.


As for considering all third world operators dangerous - I must take extreme exception to that! I am a Dive Medic, Chamber Operator, Hyperbaric Tech and a Paramedic and I make damn sure that all our staff are extremely conscientious about safety and standards. Because the risks are higher and the support services are non-existent we actually go much further with safety standards and training than one would expect.

There are operators out here who work very, very hard on safety. However, there are some who don't carry oxygen, don't have radios and pay their crew and staff the most outrageously poor wages. I have also seen the same in Australia, Egypt, Greece and Mexico.

In fact - isn't there mention of two people in the same week dying on the same boat? One of them being very overweight, without a medical, diabetic and not certified for deco depths and he was taken to 50+ meters? That was in the U.S.

The problem we have is actually differentiating ourselves between those shops that only put things on their website and in their mails and those that actually do this. One company could say that they have experienced guides and oxygen on their boat and they actually don't. How to know this ahead of time? Some research, some recommendations, reviews....but this particular operator is actually mentioned in Lonely Planet!

I must say that I do appreciate all the feedback and consideration you have put into this. We are certainly reading it all, taking notes and using it to adapt our policies and communications to guests.

 

[vladimir]

I can say that the deal with the police is 100% correct. I am not that familiar with the Philippines, but the extent of cronyism and corruption is similar according to rumors I have heard. The police in Labuan Bajo (and much of Indonesia) are corrupt.

Based on personal experience with police in Indonesia, this rings true to me (though I had no contact with the police in Labuan Bajo).

 

[DevonDiver]

To add some balance, here's another report about Danny'sss. A diver shouldn't place too much regard in a single case of praise, or criticism.... especially if that criticism has been maliciously distributed around multiple sites on the internet (as the originally referenced article was).

It's easy to 'assassinate' a business on the internet. Hopefully, an educated diver can see beyond that and seek alternative verifications of quality.


http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/indonesia/380556-trip-report-padangbai-gili-komodo-live-board.html

Komodo
Of course the main reason for my trip. I wanted to do a live-a-board trip but was a bit worried about the costs. Initially I wanted to dive with CN Komodo (see: Trip Report CN dive KOMODO) I had some contact by email and facebook but it was a bit vague. Once I arrived I couldn't find their store untill I was given the home address of Condo, the owner. Because my friends had recommendations from a direct friend we decided to check Danny'sss out first.

Their store is a bit of the mainroad of labuan Bajo. The operation is run by the family of the owner (danny). His sister runs the office, her English isn't very good but she can contact Danny through the radio. We booked for three and paid each 3.5 million for three days. It was low season so prices will be higher in high season. Their equipment is good and well maintained. Sometimes they rent additional gear elsewhere if there are for example 5 divers who all need an XL bcd but generally they own enough.

The boat is surprisingly nice. Danny bought it two years ago and renovated it totally, including a brand new engine. There is enough space for about 10 divers (daytrips) or 5 live-a-board guests (or 5 couples). On the 2nd floor there are 5 twinbeds which are divided by some space because they lay in separate wooden grids. There is also a fresh water shower, a sundeck and more than enough space to hang out. Food is included (and goooood!!), you can order beers ahead. They charge 20k a beer, which is fair but you can also bring it yourself to save some cash

We dove with two DMs (Danny had a cold and only joined 1 dive). Both very good, one was freelancing, the other was 90% of the times there. They were good guides even though one them used his stick underwater a bit too much for my taste. He was a very good spotter though.

I won't say anything about the dives because they were just awesome. We saw all that was hoped for. All attached pictures are from Komodo.

Regarding the differences between CN Komodo and Danny'sss I think that CN has more experienced DM's & Danny'sss has a better boat. Danny was very positive about Condo's operation though.

The site is Index of / (doesn''t work here though) Danny's email is key.me77@yahoo.com. Telephone 085239334873

Totally recommend this place for the budget traveller.

 

[similandiver]

Sorry if I there is the implication that I am trying to "assassinate". In fact - if you look at another thread (now deleted) I was actually soliciting positive reviews to counteract this negative review. I have not seen feedback on this operator before (good or bad) outside of the Lonely Planet book. The "meticulous distribution" consists of this post. If the person on LP put up their review anywhere - I have not seen it (or looked for it).


In truth I got a bit carried away in my last reply - as I said, we operate in the same town. I have no intention to belittle or shame them. I am a safety freak and it really pains me to hear tales like this. Not only does it reflect really poorly on our town and region, but it also makes it hard to assure others, newer divers, that diving is safe. So apologies for overdoing the drama in my last post. And yes...I was feeling a bit self-righteous...and it wasn't called for...

 

[Hank49]

That is a terrifying recount of what can happen if you dive in the third world..........How does this not keep people from diving in 3rd world countries? Scary scary stuff

This isn't an indication of what can happen if you dive in a developing country. It's an incident. Period.