Attitudes Toward DIR Divers

[lostsheep]

To be complete, 10 is allowable, if the instructor thinks the kid is ready. I know that some have said no.

That was a bit tongue in cheek in case it wasn't obvious.

I've signed off a couple of 10 year old kids, and I've denied others. I had one last year that (gasp) really took to my instruction to focus on buoyancy and trim and he straight up nailed it. Signed off a 12 year old recently and she too nailed it (although not quite as well.)

I was curious about the rec1 stuff because I am not going to teach my own kids for their sanity and my own. Despite my disdain for the dir diehards that allegedly went extinct 25 years ago, I actually do agree with damn near all of the curriculum and agree that many of their instructors are better, hence wanting it for my offspring.

To connect to this thread, having an instructor who dives in trim at all times and stresses the importance, goes a long way, especially with kids.

 

[crofrog]

PADI and GUE are at least 2 orders (maybe 3 or 4) of magnitude different in size, and thus the problem of QC is rather different for the two organizations.

The fundamental problem of QC remains the same for both organizations: ensuring consistent, high-quality instruction across all instructors. Even without economies of scale, QC processes can be scaled linearly by proportionally increasing resources like training, monitoring, and feedback systems as the organization grows. The problem statement is identical—maintaining instructional standards.

 

[lostsheep]

The fundamental problem of QC remains the same for both organizations: ensuring consistent, high-quality instruction across all instructors. Even without economies of scale, QC processes can be scaled linearly by proportionally increasing resources like training, monitoring, and feedback systems as the organization grows. The problem statement is identical—maintaining instructional standards.

What QUANTIFIABLE rubric would you use to assess the quality of instruction from a given instructor?

That's a serious question, zero flippancy intended.


I enjoyed my gue training a lot but it was by no means the panacea many have made it out to be. Curriculum was good, I appreciate the fact there is a quantifiable failure rate, and I appreciate the hard work my instructor put in WRT gear setup / adjustments. That said, I didn't receive a lot of physical training on how to do ___X___, my class was more of a prove to me you can do this and that you can answer these questions. I admit the physical demonstrations required were more stringent and most of the academics were too, but actual teaching of physical skills was not there.

 

[boulderjohn]

I appreciate the fact there is a quantifiable failure rate,

What does this mean?

my class was more of a prove to me you can do this and that you can answer these questions. I admit the physical demonstrations required were more stringent and most of the academics were too, but actual teaching of physical skills was not there.

When I began my DIR training, I was told that "we don't hold your hand the way PADI does." What does that mean, I wondered. Here is what it meant.

• No explanation of how to do a particular skill.
• No demonstration of how to do a particular skill.
• Assessment on your ability to do the particular skill.
• Mirthful mocking of your failure on the assessment of the particular skill.

 

[lostsheep]

What does this mean?

When I began my DIR training, I was told that "we don't hold your hand the way PADI does." What does that mean, I wondered. Here is what it meant.

• No explanation of how to do a particular skill.
• No demonstration of how to do a particular skill.
• Assessment on your ability to do the particular skill.
• Mirthful mocking of your failure on the assessment of the particular skill.

I asked for a quantifiable rubric, so I felt like I should include one of my own.

I know approximately how many students get a provisional or a fail from our local gue instructor. If we are going to judge someone, I prefer hard metrics to subjective opinions.

I know you are an education guy, so I am treading lightly here and as always I reserve the right to be wrong.

 

[boulderjohn]

I asked for a quantifiable rubric, so I felt like I should include one of my own.

I know approximately how many students get a provisional or a fail from our local gue instructor. If we are going to judge someone, I prefer hard metrics to subjective opinions.

I know you are an education guy, so I am treading lightly here and as always I reserve the right to be wrong.

Sorry--I still don't understand it.

Here is a simple concept from education. When you design a course, you are supposed to design it so that any student who (1) has the prerequisite skills for the course and (2) is sufficiently motivated should pass the class. The well designed course (1) has a logical progression of instruction so that the transfer load from skill to skill is not too great, (2) provides adequate time for students to progress through the curriculum (you can't do Calculus in a week), and (3) does not put undue emphasis on unnecessary and competing learning (see interference theory). The course needs to be taught by an instructor whose primary job is to make students successful, using good instructional technique, observing student progress, and intervening as needed for struggling students.

Thus, a course with a high failure rate has some combination of (1) students lacking the necessary prerequisite skills, (2) unmotivated students, (3) poor curriculum design, (4) insufficient time allotted for learning, and (5) poor instruction.

A program that brags about a high failure rate....

 

[Lostdiver71]

I was fortunate in my PADI Instructors starting in 1984 with my open water class through 1991 when I became an instructor myself, they were all great and very thorough. Once I got into the industry I started to see some that were terrible and took shortcuts that were not within standards. Working on a dive boat full time I met some great instructors, but also some that didn’t even know what the current standards were. My first few jobs I worked for boats that handed me the students and then left me alone to follow the proper standards as required. Then I worked for a shop that wanted the students cerfied in a specific time frame no matter what! They even tried to get me to take referral students out in very rough conditions and without any evaluation in the pool first. They had many other problems including wanting me to fill tanks that were out of VIP and Hydro! They went out of business about 6 months after I quit. I also had one complaint from a student to PADI that I didn’t teach her compass navigation, the 6 other students in the class, including her husband, confirmed to PADI QC that I actually had taught that in the class. I think she complained because she was mad that I wouldn’t let her buddy with her husband or let him do things like set up her gear for her, she had to learn how to do it herself to pass. I even spent extra time with her without charging extra so that she could meet standards. That was the only complaint I ever had to PADI. I never had a personal complaint to IANTD, but had to write a statement in defense of another instructor that I was assisting as a favor and he had a complaint that was baseless, just a disgruntled student that didn’t want to complete the requirements to pass and wanted a refund when they didn’t finish.

 

[RobPNW]

 

[lostsheep]

Sorry--I still don't understand it.

Here is a simple concept from education. When you design a course, you are supposed to design it so that any student who (1) has the prerequisite skills for the course and (2) is sufficiently motivated should pass the class. The well designed course (1) has a logical progression of instruction so that the transfer load from skill to skill is not too great, (2) provides adequate time for students to progress through the curriculum (you can't do Calculus in a week), and (3) does not put undue emphasis on unnecessary and competing learning (see interference theory). The course needs to be taught by an instructor whose primary job is to make students successful, using good instructional technique, observing student progress, and intervening as needed for struggling students.

This, a course with a high failure rate has some combination of (1) students lacking the necessary prerequisite skills, (2) unmotivated students, (3) poor curriculum design, (4) insufficient time allotted for learning, and (5) poor instruction.

A program that brags about a high failure rate....

How in the hell did I become an apologist on this one ?

I did not mean to imply anyone was bragging about failure rates, only that I am aware of them.

And there you have it, I am not even a dilettante WRT curriculum design, so I shall just bow out in shame.

ETA: maybe you can't do calculus in a week but anyone who has actually done and understood calculus could explain the 2 primary concepts to an algebra student in 5 minutes

 

[boulderjohn]

Then I worked for a shop that wanted the students cerfied in a specific time frame no matter what! They even tried to get me to take referral students out in very rough conditions and without any evaluation in the pool first. They had many other problems including wanting me to fill tanks that were out of VIP and Hydro!

I have said repeatedly that the weak link in the scuba certification process is the local dive operator who employs the instructors and tells them what to do. What does a dive instructor who is trying to make a living do when his or her employer creates working conditions that the instructor knows are violations of standards? As the Director of Instruction in the last shop where I worked said to me, "Instructors are a dime a dozen." Every other week someone was coming in to drop off a résumé, so if you don't like the way things are done, you can be replaced in a heartbeat by someone who is glad to have a job.