Attitudes Toward DIR Divers

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What QUANTIFIABLE rubric would you use to assess the quality of instruction from a given instructor?

That's a serious question, zero flippancy intended.


I enjoyed my gue training a lot but it was by no means the panacea many have made it out to be. Curriculum was good, I appreciate the fact there is a quantifiable failure rate, and I appreciate the hard work my instructor put in WRT gear setup / adjustments. That said, I didn't receive a lot of physical training on how to do ___X___, my class was more of a prove to me you can do this and that you can answer these questions. I admit the physical demonstrations required were more stringent and most of the academics were too, but actual teaching of physical skills was not there.

Have you pursued cave 1 or tech 1 training, or things like DPV1? That's where the real meat and potatoes start. Fundies is designed to give you the personal skills and team awareness needed to be successful in higher level training. Generally speaking, I don't feel like there is a lot of teaching that can occur to improve someone's buoyancy control or trim in 4 days, a lot of that just requires repetition and intensity in practice in the water and fundies, I feel like is designed to give you the procedures and introduce you to the standards so you can practice on your own to refine your skills to the standards.

Something like this would be a start:
  • Just Culture and Class Standards in Training Material
    • The eLearning modules should include detailed information about the course standards and the performance expectations students must maintain. Additionally, they should incorporate training on just culture, emphasizing the importance of safety, learning, and accountability over blame.
    • Throughout the course, regularly refresh participants on the class standards to ensure they understand and adhere to these expectations. Use well-designed questions during assessments to evaluate how well the course adheres to these standards.
  • Mandatory Incident Reporting
    • Implement a system requiring instructors to report all safety incidents, such as rapid ascents and buddy separations. OOG, student panic, equipment malfunctions, environmental hazards, etc. These reports, depending on their nature, would trigger investigations looking to understand the context of why this happened. Look at ASRS in general aviation. If a report was proactively filed, disciplinary action is less likely to occur, but punitive actions might still be taken in cases of gross negligence or willful violations. Make it clear that every professional present is responsible for reporting safety incidents, and that they might be subject to certification action if they failed to report.
  • Independent Assessments
    • Use independent online knowledge tests after certification to verify that students have retained the information they were taught. These tests should be managed by a third-party system that records the results independently of the instructor, providing an unbiased measure of student learning. The certifications would not be issued until these assessments are completed.
    • Prior to the above assessment, make sure that a brief learning module is provided on what the standards are in unequivocal language and why reporting is important to improve the overall safety of the system.
    • Distribute satisfaction surveys directly to students without instructor involvement, ensuring that students feel free to provide honest feedback.
  • Correlating Data from Multiple Sources
    • Cross-check data from different sources such as incident reports, student surveys, and follow-up interviews. If an instructor reports a high pass rate but student feedback indicates poor teaching quality, this discrepancy would trigger further investigation.
  • Peer Reviews
    • Include peer reviews as a regular part of the evaluation process. Instructors can observe each other’s classes and provide feedback, offering another layer of verification that goes beyond self-reported data.
  • Automated Data Collection
    • Require dive profile data to be uploaded to a QC system for every student on training every dive. This could be implemented similarly to flight data monitoring / Flight operations quality assurance. Parameters are set to determine if events are occurring and if the classes are being conducted to the standards for depth, duration, frequency, ascent rates, bottom times, etc.
 
I have said repeatedly that the weak link in the scuba certification process is the local dive operator who employs the instructors and tells them what to do. What does a dive instructor who is trying to make a living do when his or her employer creates working conditions that the instructor knows are violations of standards? As the Director of Instruction in the last shop where I worked said to me, "Instructors are a dime a dozen." Every other week someone was coming in to drop of a résumé, so if you don't like the way things are done, you can be replaced in a heartbeat by someone who is glad to have a job.
by creating a culture where those people are reported to the certification agencies by the instructors, and they lose their affiliation with the certifying agency.
 
A program that brags about a high failure rate....
I don't think the failure rate is as high as you think it is. The technical pass rate for first-time students is lowish I'm guessing, but I think a lot of people walk out with a recreational pass, assuming they do it in a configuration they're comfortable diving in.

Additionally they're working against primacy from previous training, a much more interesting statistic would be how successful is the REC1 program at creating divers to the standard (the same one as fundies).

This, a course with a high failure rate has some combination of (1) students lacking the necessary prerequisite skills, (2) unmotivated students, (3) poor curriculum design, (4) insufficient time allotted for learning, and (5) poor instruction.

That being said the standard is the standard. I think it's a cruel commentary on the quality of your typical divers education and training that they can't show up and pass fundies to the recreational standard in a recreational (single tank, wet) configuration.

Are any of these standards an unreasonable expectation for a student out of open water training?

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Something like this would be a start:
  • Just Culture and Class Standards in Training Material
    • The eLearning modules should include detailed information about the course standards and the performance expectations students must maintain. Additionally, they should incorporate training on just culture, emphasizing the importance of safety, learning, and accountability over blame.
    • Throughout the course, regularly refresh participants on the class standards to ensure they understand and adhere to these expectations. Use well-designed questions during assessments to evaluate how well the course adheres to these standards.
  • Mandatory Incident Reporting
    • Implement a system requiring instructors to report all safety incidents, such as rapid ascents and buddy separations. OOG, student panic, equipment malfunctions, environmental hazards, etc. These reports, depending on their nature, would trigger investigations looking to understand the context of why this happened. Look at ASRS in general aviation. If a report was proactively filed, disciplinary action is less likely to occur, but punitive actions might still be taken in cases of gross negligence or willful violations. Make it clear that every professional present is responsible for reporting safety incidents, and that they might be subject to certification action if they failed to report.
  • Independent Assessments
    • Use independent online knowledge tests after certification to verify that students have retained the information they were taught. These tests should be managed by a third-party system that records the results independently of the instructor, providing an unbiased measure of student learning. The certifications would not be issued until these assessments are completed.
    • Prior to the above assessment, make sure that a brief learning module is provided on what the standards are in unequivocal language and why reporting is important to improve the overall safety of the system.
    • Distribute satisfaction surveys directly to students without instructor involvement, ensuring that students feel free to provide honest feedback.
  • Correlating Data from Multiple Sources
    • Cross-check data from different sources such as incident reports, student surveys, and follow-up interviews. If an instructor reports a high pass rate but student feedback indicates poor teaching quality, this discrepancy would trigger further investigation.
  • Peer Reviews
    • Include peer reviews as a regular part of the evaluation process. Instructors can observe each other’s classes and provide feedback, offering another layer of verification that goes beyond self-reported data.
  • Automated Data Collection
    • Require dive profile data to be uploaded to a QC system for every student on training every dive. This could be implemented similarly to flight data monitoring / Flight operations quality assurance. Parameters are set to determine if events are occurring and if the classes are being conducted to the standards for depth, duration, frequency, ascent rates, bottom times, etc.

Look, I think you are an abrasive poster on here but I also firmly believe you know a thing or two about diving. Believe it or not I respect that and am not intimidated by it. I am honestly interested in YOUR opinion not a copy and paste job.

That said, where did you get that list and where are those data published? I am extremely skeptical any agency would share those data accurately or openly therefore not a win for any of them. That has the tone of Gareth Locke but I am guessing.
 
Are any of these standards an unreasonable expectation for a student out of open water training?
Yes.
(a) The swimming requirements (surface and u/w) are on the extreme side; (e) right out of OW training is not likely, or necessary; (h) min decompression is not a recreational skill, it is prep for advanced training; (k) (l) cave skill, not a new OW diver; (n) not with a single tank; (o) too narrow....; (p) two kicks would be good for a new diver.
 
Looks like you edited your post to ask:

"Have you pursued cave 1 or tech 1 training, or things like DPV1? That's where the real meat and potatoes start. Fundies is designed to give you the personal skills and team awareness needed to be successful in higher level training. Generally speaking, I don't feel like there is a lot of teaching that can occur to improve someone's buoyancy control or trim in 4 days, a lot of that just requires repetition and intensity in practice in the water and fundies, I feel like is designed to give you the procedures and introduce you to the standards so you can practice on your own to refine your skills to the standards."

The answer is yes and as I have mentioned before I was told, "NO" by our local instructor.

Why? Because I was asked if I would commit to diving the GUE way AT ALL TIMES even outside of GUE dives. I should have lied and said yes, but I don't do that well. I said I would commit to the GUE way when I was diving on the GUE charters but I wasn't going to give up my Chop, nor was I going to give up diving SM (gasp in open water no less.) I have zero problems accommodating whoever I am diving with, but I am not going to be told I have to do ___X___ when it's not called for based off of my team members that day. When I dive with my GUE buddies who aren't dicks, I'll lead the ******* GUEEDGE, but telling me I can't do T1 cause I dive with non GUE guys who don't use that forced acronym? Come on.

I know, I know, that hasn't happened in 25 years and I'm just making **** up based off of what I read on the internet... :rolleyes:
 
I have said repeatedly that the weak link in the scuba certification process is the local dive operator who employs the instructors and tells them what to do. What does a dive instructor who is trying to make a living do when his or her employer creates working conditions that the instructor knows are violations of standards? As the Director of Instruction in the last shop where I worked said to me, "Instructors are a dime a dozen." Every other week someone was coming in to drop of a résumé, so if you don't like the way things are done, you can be replaced in a heartbeat by someone who is glad to have a job.
I quit working for shops directly and became an independent instructor part time. Then I left the industry so that I could actually make a living!
 
Look, I think you are an abrasive poster on here but I also firmly believe you know a thing or two about diving. Believe it or not I respect that and am not intimidated by it. I am honestly interested in YOUR opinion not a copy and paste job.

That said, where did you get that list and where are those data published? I am extremely skeptical any agency would share those data accurately or openly therefore not a win for any of them. That has the tone of Gareth Locke but I am guessing.

I wrote that. You made me think seriously about how to answer the question so I did. Sorry to disappoint.

As for background I’ve taken some of Gareth’s classes, have an aviation background, and done some work in some high risk domains.
 
I wrote that. You made me think seriously about how to answer the question so I did. Sorry to disappoint.

As for background I’ve taken some of Gareth’s classes, have an aviation background, and done some work in some high risk domains.

I incorrectly ASSumed that was a copy and paste. I stand corrected, my apologies.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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