Attitudes Toward DIR Divers

[nadwidny]

What does this mean?

When I began my DIR training, I was told that "we don't hold your hand the way PADI does." What does that mean, I wondered. Here is what it meant.

• No explanation of how to do a particular skill.
• No demonstration of how to do a particular skill.
• Assessment on your ability to do the particular skill.
• Mirthful mocking of your failure on the assessment of the particular skill.

Sounds like you did a class with AG.

 

[ofg-1]

If something doesn't apply to 99% of x, then it does apply to 1% or 1 in 100. 99.9% would apply to 1 in a thousand and so on. Your number 99.9999999% means it would apply to 1 in a billion (thousand million for UK readers) divers. I think the total number of scuba divers in history is under a tenth of this number. Meaning we might have to wait for several centuries to find a situation where the

You know that only 1/2 the people around understand math. The other 2/3's don't.

 

[Lorenzoid]

What does this mean?

When I began my DIR training, I was told that "we don't hold your hand the way PADI does." What does that mean, I wondered. Here is what it meant.

• No explanation of how to do a particular skill.
• No demonstration of how to do a particular skill.
• Assessment on your ability to do the particular skill.
• Mirthful mocking of your failure on the assessment of the particular skill.

Wow, what you describe is nothing like my experiences (GUE, 2013 to present). Was this with GUE or UTD? I don't recall any of my instructors mentioning another training agency in any of my courses. In each course, the instructor demonstrated the skills on land, and we practiced them on land ("field drills") before getting in the water. I witnessed nothing resembling mocking; only positive reinforcement and encouragement--as one would expect from a good teacher.

I would like to believe anything like what you describe has long since been rectified. Were they using QC evaluation forms back then, and if so, did you mention these things? If I recall, the evaluation forms I was given included questions apparently designed to detect just such unprofessional behavior, and it occurred to me that these questions must have been included because of unprofessional behavior in the early days of DIR training that I had only heard about here on SB from old-timers like you and Doc Harry.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I was asked if I would commit to diving the GUE way AT ALL TIMES even outside of GUE dives. I should have lied and said yes, but I don't do that well. I said I would commit to the GUE way when I was diving on the GUE charters but I wasn't going to give up my Chop, nor was I going to give up diving SM (gasp in open water no less.) I have zero problems accommodating whoever I am diving with, but I am not going to be told I have to do ___X___ when it's not called for based off of my team members that day. When I dive with my GUE buddies who aren't dicks, I'll lead the ******* GUEEDGE, but telling me I can't do T1 cause I dive with non GUE guys who don't use that forced acronym? Come on.

That would turn me off, too. Maybe some instructors are asking this "commitment." I have not encountered it. I like your attitude on this issue.

 

[boulderjohn]

Sounds like you did a class with AG.

I only took one class directly from AG, although we had a lot of communication through email as I challenged many of his assertions related to decompression theory.

The instructor i mentioned was trained by him, starting in the GUE days, and he absolutely worshipped him. That was a real issue for me--I felt that to much of what I was learning was based on hero worship. I was part of a webinar in which one of the attendees, quite skeptical, asked for the basis for what we were being told, and he said, "You have to have faith." "Faith in you?" she asked. "Yes," he answered.

 

[boulderjohn]

Wow, what you describe is nothing like my experiences (GUE, 2013 to present). Was this with GUE or UTD? I don't recall any of my instructors mentioning another training agency in any of my courses. In each course, the instructor demonstrated the skills on land, and we practiced them on land ("field drills") before getting in the water. I witnessed nothing resembling mocking; only positive reinforcement and encouragement--as one would expect from a good teacher.

I would like to believe anything like what you describe has long since been rectified. Were they using QC evaluation forms back then, and if so, did you mention these things? If I recall, the evaluation forms I was given included questions apparently designed to detect just such unprofessional behavior, and it occurred to me that these questions must have been included because of unprofessional behavior in the early days of DIR training that I had only heard about here on SB from old-timers like you and Doc Harry.

It was UTD. There was no instructor evaluation process.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

And if they (or any agency) were to "micro-manage every single class that goes on around the world," it would expose the agency to the kind of "vicarious liability" that they routinely disclaim in defense when they are included in a lawsuit on that basis. (See the MIlls case, for example.)

It seems to me that GUE has tried to strike a balance on this. They publish the standards for each course, so a student is well aware of what is expected of them, and they have a Quality Control program where each student is asked to fill out a course evaluation form after their class is over.

All a PADI diver has to do is read the book cover to cover and that will pretty much sum up everything they should be covering. If you don’t then you were shorted.
People can argue all they want about PADI being a cut rate, cut short, abbreviated program, but at the end of the day they are the biggest one out there certifying the most people. They are bigger than all the others combined, so they must have something figured out.
Just based on how the whole GUE DIR thing is configured it is a very specialized type of education with a big commitment in time and money. If GUE became the global standard diving would dry up, dive shops would dry up, It would become an unsustainable industry just based on their inability to be more inclusive.
So all you DIR/GUE koolaider cheerleaders out there, be happy that you at least have a pool if raw material to work from. Without PADI, SSI, NAUI and all the other agencies you laugh at you’d have nothing.

 

[crofrog]

I only took one class directly from AG, although we had a lot of communication through email as I challenged many of his assertions related to decompression theory.

The instructor i mentioned was trained by him, starting in the GUE days, and he absolutely worshipped him. That was a real issue for me--I felt that to much of what I was learning was based on hero worship. I was part of a webinar in which one of the attendees, quite skeptical, asked for the basis for what we were being told, and he said, "You have to have faith." "Faith in you?" she asked. "Yes," he answered.

Just to educate people on the thread.

Andrew Georgitsis was was removed from GUE by the QC board in September of 2005:

Dear GUE Members,

Please be advised that in May of 2005 a complaint was lodged against Andrew
Georgitsis claiming unprofessional conduct. Following a three month
discovery process, GUE's Quality Control Board unanimously determined that
there was sufficient reason to conclude that Andrew Georgitsis' conduct was
often unprofessional and did not promote the best interests of GUE. As a
result, the five members of this Board unanimously voted that his GUE
membership not be renewed. As a result Andrew Georgitsis will no longer be
sanctioned to teach GUE classes.

It is important to underscore that issues here did not orbit student safety,
as Andrew Georgitsis would have been removed immediately, but rather a
systematic attempt on Andrew Georgitsis' part to suborn the authority and
efforts of GUE's administration coupled with public, derogatory and profane
remarks about GUE members, GUE instructors, former students, and senior
members of GUE in public venues (including instructional settings).

Sincerely yours,

PDA

Dr. Panos D. Alexakos
Vice-President and Director of Quality Control
Global Underwater Explorers

None of what you're described is what I've experienced in my GUE classes, or from anyone, employees or otherwise at Extreme Exposure, Halcyon or any of the GUE community groups.

 

[crofrog]

All a PADI diver has to do is read the book cover to cover and that will pretty much sum up everything they should be covering. If you don’t then you were shorted.
People can argue all they want about PADI being a cut rate, cut short, abbreviated program, but at the end of the day they are the biggest one out there certifying the most people. They are bigger than all the others combined, so they must have something figured out.
Just based on how the whole GUE DIR thing is configured it is a very specialized type of education with a big commitment in time and money. If GUE became the global standard diving would dry up, dive shops would dry up, It would become an unsustainable industry just based on their inability to be more inclusive.
So all you DIR/GUE koolaider cheerleaders out there, be happy that you at least have a pool if raw material to work from. Without PADI, SSI, NAUI and all the other agencies you laugh at you’d have nothing.

You seem to be really stuck on this quantity thing? Why do you care so much about the number of divers they've certified.

While I agree that quantity has a quality all of its own, we normally reserve that phrase for talking about USSR's military.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

You seem to be really stuck on this quantity thing? Why do you care so much about the number of divers they've certified.

While I agree that quantity has a quality all of its own, we normally reserve that phrase for talking about USSR's military.

I’m not stuck on it, just a fact.
Like it or not, quantity is what keeps so many manufacturers, dive shops, dive centers, dive clubs, dive charter boats, dive vacation resorts, keeps all of them in business.
You guys are feeding off that, be grateful.
Like I said way back, JJ’s original vision was to create more DIR divers for the WKPP. Not until later did they decide to expand the gospel and declare the DIR good for all diving.
If you’re going to do that you need to compromise and adjust to the market. Looking at the numbers posted GUE hasn’t been able to figure that out.
If GUE ran diving and the world had to adhere to DIR standards they’d lose 98% of the diving public.
And no, divers are not dropping like flies because they are not GUE trained.