Attitudes Toward DIR Divers

[Zach The Diver]

Yep, that is exactly how I felt...hence my ignoring your posts.
You are not listening to any input, but rather trying to denigrate anything you disagree with.
I don't think you even know you are doing this.....
Have fun.

Again, my goal isn’t to denigrate anyone. I simply just want to know why there’s a tendency to treat and clump DIR divers a certain way. I’ve gotten plenty of good feedback from people who have made me rethink some things, but a lot of the thread is either predicated off some extremely onerous perception from the “DIR Wars” of days gone or from people who frankly have no idea what they’re talking about… Then we have posts like yours that have slowly morphed into frankly childish insults.

Most of these posts aren’t even addressing what I asked… it’s a lot of “oh here we go, another DIR diver that is telling ME how I should dive!”

 

[Boarderguy]

 

[tursiops]

Most of these posts aren’t even addressing what I asked… it’s a lot of “oh here we go, another DIR diver that is telling ME how I should dive!”

Isn't that exactly what you asked?

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I think the DIR community should just be happy that some DIR stuff has already influenced the recreational world. If you’re expecting the regular world to give up their poodle jackets and all the other non DIR compliant gear, your going to be sorely disappointed, and this stupid feud will never end.
You really should be happy that some stuff has rubbed off like staying reasonably flat, staying off the bottom, cleaning up your gear so stuff doesn’t dangle and break things on the bottom, not rototilling the seafloor with bad finning techniques, and better buddy/situational awareness. All of this should be standard but unfortunately it’s not. But I think it’s better than it used to be.
I have an idea, why don’t one of you go shop a standard OW class. Sign up and pretend you know nothing, use all of their gear, then do the entire class off the bottom and in perfect trim, keep your mouth shut, let people watch you, let the instructor see you, maybe your pristine skills will rub off? Maybe the instructor might even learn something too?
Instead of hammering the holistic approach of one thing missing in the system then it’s not a complete system, how about being more of a spokesperson and liaison of just better skills using gear that is currently the industry standard.
You might have to sacrifice a little if you want to expand your influence. Work with what’s out there and work to make it better, conventional gear and PADI aren’t going away.
And be friendly and helpful while you’re at it. Nobody will listen to a prick.

 

[Zach The Diver]

Isn't that exactly what you asked?

Please elaborate.

I’ll backtrack for a minute. Do you- and I mean this genuinely- think it makes sense to have such a strong kneejerk reaction against some diver who is vocal and thinks a BPW is better, thinks long hose is better, etc. etc?

Discussions like this are had all the time in scuba… just as soon as the topic veers into the territory of DIR is there such a harsh, vapid, and pervasive reaction from other divers?

No one would freak out like this if I was like “Say, you should try my Scubapro Dimension jacket. You might like it better than your Cressi Pearl”.

If everyone lived in their own little cubicle and never had these kinds of open discussions in good faith, how can we ever hope for our sport, hobby, or whatever you want to call it evolve and grow?

I’m leaving my comments on this thread at that. Take it for what you will. Happy diving.

 

[Outbound]

Again, my goal isn’t to denigrate anyone. I simply just want to know why there’s a tendency to treat and clump DIR divers a certain way. I’ve gotten plenty of good feedback from people who have made me rethink some things, but a lot of the thread is either predicated off some extremely onerous perception from the “DIR Wars” of days gone or from people who frankly have no idea what they’re talking about… Then we have posts like yours that have slowly morphed into frankly childish insults.

Most of these posts aren’t even addressing what I asked… it’s a lot of “oh here we go, another DIR diver that is telling ME how I should dive!”

I came to diving and to Scubaboard well after the DIR wars, which I didn't even know existed until this thread. But it became instantly apparent to me that, on the whole, the DIR crowd had/has a strong tendency towards dogmatism. That is what most recreational divers find so off-putting. The DIR divers tend to lump all non-DIR divers together as crappy bicycle kicking strokes with dangling octos. Non-DIR divers tend to lump DIR divers together as a bunch of sanctimonious pricks who insist that their way is the best and only way to safely dive.

Personally, as long as you're not silting out the dive site and being a genuine danger to yourself or to others, I don't really care what gear configuration you use, whether or not you maintain perfect horizontal trim, etc.

 

[tursiops]

Please elaborate.

I’ll backtrack for a minute. Do you- and I mean this genuinely- think it makes sense to have such a strong kneejerk reaction against some diver who is vocal and thinks a BPW is better, thinks long hose is better, etc. etc?

Discussions like this are had all the time in scuba… just as soon as the topic veers into the territory of DIR is there such a harsh, vapid, and pervasive reaction from other divers?

No one would freak out like this if I was like “Say, you should try my Scubapro Dimension jacket. You might like it better than your Cressi Pearl”.

If everyone lived in their own little cubicle and never had these kinds of open discussions in good faith, how can we ever hope for our sport, hobby, or whatever you want to call it evolve and grow?

You make a request and then ask three questions.

I’m leaving my comments on this thread at that. Take it for what you will.

I give up. You now say you are done.
I can only assume the request and questions are rhetorical, as i now understand the original question was.
You didn't really ask a question, you just made a statement and posed it as a rhetorical question.
And then got upset when people answered your "question."

 

[Zach The Diver]

I think the DIR community should just be happy that some DIR stuff has already influenced the recreational world. If you’re expecting the regular world to give up their poodle jackets and all the other non DIR compliant gear, your going to be sorely disappointed, and this stupid feud will never end.
You really should be happy that some stuff has rubbed off like staying reasonably flat, staying off the bottom, cleaning up your gear so stuff doesn’t dangle and break things on the bottom, not rototilling the seafloor with bad finning techniques, and better buddy/situational awareness. All of this should be standard but unfortunately it’s not. But I think it’s better than it used to be.
I have an idea, why don’t one of you go shop a standard OW class. Sign up and pretend you know nothing, use all of their gear, then do the entire class off the bottom and in perfect trim, keep your mouth shut, let people watch you, let the instructor see you, maybe your pristine skills will rub off? Maybe the instructor might even learn something too?
Instead of hammering the holistic approach of one thing missing in the system then it’s not a complete system, how about being more of a spokesperson and liaison of just better skills using gear that is currently the industry standard.
You might have to sacrifice a little if you want to expand your influence. Work with what’s out there and work to make it better, conventional gear and PADI aren’t going away.
And be friendly and helpful while you’re at it. Nobody will listen to a prick.

I’m not sure if you are aiming this at me or at the group in general, but in principle I do agree with this Eric.

As for everyone here-

I’m going to break my promise and leave this post here in the spirit of keeping this conversation productive. Consider the following question:

How can DIR divers brooch this kind of topic without eliciting such a provoked reaction from others? In what ways can that tendency be overcome?

And no, I am not placing any value in “uhhh just don’t say anything at all” because that’s stupid and you people wouldn’t be here on Scubaboard to have these conversations if you truly believed that (unless you think that only applies to views you agree with). Diving imo is about having open and honest conversations about how to practice it safely and more effectively, which is why I may have had a bit of a strong reaction against some of the earlier posts.

 

[Outbound]

Please elaborate.

I’ll backtrack for a minute. Do you- and I mean this genuinely- think it makes sense to have such a strong kneejerk reaction against some diver who is vocal and thinks a BPW is better, thinks long hose is better, etc. etc?

Discussions like this are had all the time in scuba… just as soon as the topic veers into the territory of DIR is there such a harsh, vapid, and pervasive reaction from other divers?

No one would freak out like this if I was like “Say, you should try my Scubapro Dimension jacket. You might like it better than your Cressi Pearl”.

If everyone lived in their own little cubicle and never had these kinds of open discussions in good faith, how can we ever hope for our sport, hobby, or whatever you want to call it evolve and grow?

I’m leaving my comments on this thread at that. Take it for what you will. Happy diving.

Okay, I'll bite.

The problem is that the conversation is rarely along the lines of "Hey, there are some benefits of using a long-hose primary and an octo on a bungee. Here are what those benefits are. Think about it and see if it might fit your diving style, and maybe you'll want to give it a try." We all know that's seldom how the argument is presented. Instead, it's presented as a black and white clearcut superior choice for all styles of diving versus a clearly inferior choice. And that's simply not true.

Just take a look at one of the recent posts here on SB where a person asked about pony bottle size for redundancy. He got a bunch of on-point responses from non-DIR divers and then a couple of DIR (or at least DIR-leaning) people telling him that he was basically an idiot for slinging a pony and that he should learn about team diving and use backmounted doubles with an isolation valve. Which argument do you think people are going to gravitate towards more?

 

[Zach The Diver]

You make a request and then ask three questions.

I give up. You now say you are done.
I can only assume the request and questions are rhetorical, as i now understand the original question was.
You didn't really ask a question, you just made a statement and posed it as a rhetorical question.
And then got upset when people answered your "question.

Okay, I'll bite.

The problem is that the conversation is rarely along the lines of "Hey, there are some benefits of using a long-hose primary and an octo on a bungee. Here are what those benefits are. Think about it and see if it might fit your diving style, and maybe you'll want to give it a try." We all know that's seldom how the argument is presented. Instead, it's presented as a black and white clearcut superior choice for all styles of diving versus a clearly inferior choice. And that's simply not true.

Just take a look at one of the recent posts here on SB where a person asked about pony bottle size for redundancy. He got a bunch of on-point responses from non-DIR divers and then a couple of DIR (or at least DIR-leaning) people telling him that he was basically an idiot for slinging a pony and that he should learn about team diving and use backmounted doubles with an isolation valve. Which argument do you think people are going to gravitate towards more?

Yeah, I agree with you, that is extremely poor form and will undoubtedly push people away and I am not a fan of it.

My only point is that I think (and I’m just some guy who has been diving for a couple of years, not someone who has been in the industry forever) there are more divers who would illustrate a point like that without being belittling than some here would care to admit.

I’ve had plenty of other divers- mainly DIR leaning- who have mentored and assisted me in a way that isn’t demeaning. Again though, I’m only one person and I do know more negative interactions do take place frequently.