Are you all just technical? What is technical?

[James R]

Following all the advice about BP/Ws I read here on SB, I bought a new Dive Rite Classic Wing and a Dive Rite backplate.

Did you dive that wing with single tanks? If so...yikes, wrong tool for the job. Probably a contributor to face-down issues you had at the surface due to the amount of lift, how wide that wing is, and maybe how you had it set up. I have a DR Classic EXP dual bladder wing that I use only with doubles...I'd rather dive a regular BCD than a classic wing on a single tank.

I had some issues (a lot actually) when I first got that wing and dove with my double HP100s & drysuit. I had it too low on the tanks and ended up needing a tail-weight. It took me 4 dives to get it sorted

No, I didn't say that it ticks me off for someone to say they prefer a BCD, I said it ticks me off when they say the BP/W will face plant you. It's simply not a true statement. Heck, I've even inflate the heck out of my wing ( way more then I'd ever have reason to. ) and I didn't get face planted. I just lean back into it a little and it's fine. ( Hopefully you learned how to balance in grade school. ) Properly inflacted to keep me just above the water and you don't even have to balance at all.

The faceplant "myth" is something that is continued by people who don't like BP/W's. It has no basis in fact.

I agree with you that a BP/W rig, when properly configured, shouldn't push a diver face-down at the surface. Key word is properly configured. I've been diving BP/W a long time. I have seen a handful of people new to them have some issues with trim or at the surface which were 100% due to how they had them setup (eg how high the tank is, tank type - AL vs steel, what holes they used to attach the wing to the backplate, etc).

How often are you around people who just got a BP/W and are diving it for the first time? I would bet not many since you just started diving again recently and just got your first BP/W a few months back. Keep in mind that not everyone goes to a pool with an instructor to get their gear dialed in and practice with it like you did, and thus could have easily had a problem.


Anyway....

This is often a pretty heated debate on Scubaboard, but interestingly I didn't hear anyone discussing this while on the Scubaboard invasion a few weeks ago. There were a mix of BP/W and BCD on the boat every day, yet it ever came up. We all must have had something better to do.

 

[ekremer]

Hmm a plastic backplate? You mean one of those Kydex ones? I can see that being more likely to have the face plant issue than a proper al, or steel backplate, as they don't have the weight needed. However, I imagine it is similar to how my ranger was, and my ranger needed a few lbs to be moved to the trim pockets to even it out. Once configured properly face planting wasn't an issue.

 

[Paladin]

Hmm a plastic backplate? You mean one of those Kydex ones? I can see that being more likely to have the face plant issue than a proper al, or steel backplate, as they don't have the weight needed. However, I imagine it is similar to how my ranger was, and my ranger needed a few lbs to be moved to the trim pockets to even it out. Once configured properly face planting wasn't an issue.

As I stated in my post, I had six pounds of lead attached to the plate and that was the only weight I carried.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

FWIW..jacket BC work very well but are limited basically to rec. diving. Now if you are satisfied with 80-80-80 dives then there is no need to go to B/W. You'll be just fine with the jacket. OTOH if you desire to advance your diving to the "tec" side then a B/W is the way to go. Loved my Oceanic Bioflex jacket but it simply did not have the lift to support doubles with a deco tank. Currently I use 3 different wings depending on the dive without having to buy additional jacket BC's. There will be several posters talking about face down, trim etc but for me if you like rec. diving then there is no real pressing issue to go B/W. Hope this helps.

 

[Cixelsyd]

TO get back to the original question, no, not everyone here is technical (I'm not). As for your choice of jacket vs. BP/W, see if you can rent different styles and models of both and see what works best for you. People on here can give all the advice they want, but ultimately, it's really up to what makes you the most comfortable in the water for the diving you like to do.

I certified on a jack and have generally done my diving in jacket style BCs, but got the opportunity to try out a Dive Rite Trans-Pac this past week and really enjoyed that as well. I'm going to keep trying different options in the coming months to compare and see which ones I like the best.

 

[TSandM]

BTW, I didn't say backplates were the best system for every diver, although I think they work very well for almost everybody. I did say they weren't just technical gear, and a shop that is saying they are doesn't want to sell them, for whatever reason.

With the advent of the Cinch type systems, even backplates can be easily adjusted for students. We use an even easier approach -- we put a buckle on the waist strap by the plate, so the harness can't pull through, and we use a buckle-adjusted crotch strap. Not what I'd want for deep technical diving, but it's just fine for OW classes, and allows very fast adjustment.

 

[motorref]

edited to shorten:

TO get back to the original question, no, not everyone here is technical (I'm not). As for your choice of jacket vs. BP/W, see if you can rent different styles and models of both and see what works best for you. People on here can give all the advice they want, but ultimately, it's really up to what makes you the most comfortable in the water for the diving you like to do.

Yes, everyone here is not technical, and no everyone here does not advocate bp/w. The best advice is what most have given you -determine what type of diving you plan to do the most of, and then try out different BCs.
Utilize resources such as recommendations from friends, on-line reviews such as Scuba Gear Reports (Your Scuba Reviews Scuba diving, scuba gear reviews, scuba diving tra ), and then try some different equipment.
I consider myself a newbie, and bought myself new equipment over the winter; I typically travel to dive (vacations w/ wife), so a travel BC was at the top of my list. I had been renting different brands of jacket BCs, and wanted to try a back inflate, so after looking around, and talking to Oceanic, I decided on the Oceanic Islander - last year's model and the only difference was the colors, striping, etc.
There is a big difference in fit for the women's BCs - my oldest daughter is a huge fan of the Zena, as it is better contoured for a women's smaller ribcage and (ahem,,,) wider hips,,,,,
If you're lucky enough to live close to a shop that does demo days, then by all means give it a try - it'll provide you with more information, and the subjective "fit and feel" and how comfortable it is on you can make all of the difference.
This is a great sport, and I wish I had begun many many years ago, but at least I can enjoy the recreational end of it - at my age (55) I have no desire or inclination to take up cave diving or any other tech speciality; I like being in the water, looking at "stuff" and keeping an eye on my daughters.

KevinL

 

[rhwestfall]

I am not technical, yet dive a long hose and a BP/W. I went from a BC to a back -ionflate when i got a dry suit, as I needed the open front for the inflation system. The back-inflate was, in my opinion, better, but not still quite right. Part of the problem was size. I'm 6'-7" tall, and 99% of the "mass production" of bouyancy compensators do not fit me correctly (nor do 99% of the plates). Once I found a plate that actually allowed me to have straps where they belong, allowed me to position items in their proper places, it all came together.... 23 years and 3 devices to find a proper fit....

As to the long hose - once I realized the comfort it afforded, I was a convert. Check my early posts here. Early on I was passionate about my Air-2.....

Things can evolve if you go into it with an open mind, and get the right help in configuring it.

Is any one the right one? It is if it works for you......

And, again, I am not a Technical Diver...... likely never will be...

 

[boulderjohn]

Immediately after getting certified, I bought a back inflate BCD, and I wore back inflate BCDs for hundreds of dives before I heard someone say that back inflate BCDs push you face down on the surface. That was news to me--I had never noticed that. I have since heard the same thing about BP/Ws, and I haven't noticed that either. I think there is a reason for that.

One advantage of both a back inflate BCD and a BP/W is that they do help you trim out and dive horizontally easily when you are under water. Logically, it would follow that they would do the same thing at the surface. The difference is that under water you want to have horizontal trim. The back inflate or BP/W is helping you achieve that, and you are happy to let that happen. On the surface, you don't want that to happen, so you have to assume a different body posture so that it doesn't happen.

What I suspect is that people who are used to bobbing on the surface with a jacket style BCD holding them perfectly upright without their making any effort will indeed be pushed forward the first time they try a back inflate or BP/W because they do not know the proper body posture that keeps that from happening. Because I started that way and did hundreds of dives that way, I naturally learned how to lean the body, without realizing I was doing anything special. That transferred nicely to the BP/W when I switched to that.

And so, given the choice between a design that helps me achieve a comfortable diving posture throughout the dive and one that floats me upright for the few minutes I am on the surface awaiting a boat...

 

[Them]

If the "neat shop" is Scubatoys - in about 10 years they've never steered me wrong.

I wasn't planning to mention names, but yes. And, well, from a noob this may not be worth much but the guy sounded extremely knowledgeable. There was a bit of "this is your life support, how cheap do you want to go" nodding and winking but there was no "square peg/round hole" forcing. What I mean by that: I said what I wanted to do. He showed me products that would do what I wanted. The folded over Zeagle BC was admirably compact for example. And I don't think he meant "technical" in a disparaging way, but I'm not really hep to the rivalries and schisms in the diving community either.

Way too much for me to comment on in this thread but it has been a great read so far!

As for the diving I want to do.... honestly probably colder water stuff in the long run. I drove my jeep from Dallas to Denali Nat'l Park and back (with a side trip to Anchorage) last year and while circumstances prevented going again this year I will probably head north again in 2013. I owned a sailboat when I lived in SoCal, kept it in Long Beach harbor, and really enjoyed coastal sailing. I should have taken up diving then (even if only to scrape my own bottom) but didn't. I'll probably end up with another sailboat, but part of me wants to buy a small airplane instead. Oh, and I have a tendency to get on my motorcycle and go camping in strange places...in my fantasy world I would be able to get on my bike and ride somewhere, rent tanks and maybe some lead weights, and dive.

I am sort of an engineer by training (and upbringing) and I have a built-up dislike for products where everything is perfectly integrated and interdependent to the point where it can't be fixed or modified or used for anything but what it was originally designed to do. Intellectually a slab of stainless steel with a few important bits of gear attached just seems right. But...bias + ignorance can lead to bad decisions, and I'm ignorant about real-world SCUBA.

I suspect that all of the advice I've gotten so far has been good. It just hasn't been consistent. Which leaves a noob like me trying to shuffle through a bunch of right choices without enough information. There are worse problems to have.

ETA: Regarding pushing-forward.... without any flotation aid I can/do float perfectly comfortably on my back, or upright, as long as I'm conscious. If the added buoyancy of the BCD/Wing/Whatever keeps the scuba equipment even close to positively buoyant I'll be able to float on my back, or upright, as long as I'm conscious. Unless the flotation provided by the BCD is similar to a type I PFD (which will usually turn an unconscious person face-up) I am not sure that moving the flotation forward of my lungs is going to make much difference to me. Am I missing something?