Are you a stroke?

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by KC_Scubabunny

KC_Scubabunny

Whose personal motto is "Your mind is like a parachute, it must be open to function properly."

Hi Scubabunny,
I know your question was to Warren and I don't want to interject an answer but I would like to make a comment.

You don't need GUE/DIR training to have good safe fun within recreational diving limits IMO. Let me add that GUE/DIR is superb in developing skills that will make even recreational diving more enjoyable and I don't consider it a waste of time or money but you can get there other ways too.

To the issue of this thread - the term *stroke*....
It is offensive to me.

Oh... and your tag line above... it should include: "...at the proper time..."

 

[VTWarrenG]

KC,

The best DIR text far and away is the little book called "Doing it Right: The Fundamentals of Better Diving" by Jarrod Jablonski of the GUE. You can buy the book for $24 from the GUE. http://www.gue.com/classroom/manuals.shtml

Trust me, this book is not intimidating, condescending, or rude. It just explains the thought process that went into developing DIR, and why it works better than what is often taught in OW classes. It *does* make a lot of references to Halcyon gear -- but it also makes references to Apeks and DiveRite and other gear, too. It's a relatively short, easy read, and is very informative.

more of a sales pitch for a certain type of gear

I will admit that DIR and Halcyon are intertwined; however, they're intertwined in a good way. Some people assume that Halcyon made up DIR to sell their gear -- the truth is that DIR was created over time by cave divers, especially such teams as the WKPP. Halcyon was created much later to fill the market opportunity to develop gear specifically targeted to DIR. Halcyon makes a lot of DIR gear -- they also make a few things which aren't DIR. A lot of other companies (like DiveRite) also make gear which is applicable to DIR diving. In fact, I dive DIR, but the only Halcyon item I have is a pocket that I can hang on my harness. I think it was a bad decision on Halcyon's part to use the words "Doing It Right" in their logo, but, well, DIR isn't a copyright, and isn't owned by anyone. Using "Doing It Right" as a corporate moniker isn't much different than using "DiveRite" as a corporate moniker.

Keep in mind as well that DIR has a LOT to say about equipment. In fact, it has so much to say about equipment that many people mistakenly identify DIR as just a different equipment configuration. In reality, it is much more -- it's a set of standards and protocols (for gas mixing, gas switching, scootering, surveying, handling emergencies, signalling, you name it) that have been carefully and critically engineered together to be the safest possible diving system (using technology available to recreational divers).

It is true that you cannot be DIR with a normal jacket-style BC -- it's also true that you can't be DIR unless you have a particular type of fin. Many people get hung up on that, and it leads them to believe DIR is a marketing gimmick. If you like your jacket-style BC, that's perfectly okay -- it does mean in the strictest sense that you are not DIR -- but it doesn't mean you're not safer for having considered all the things that DIR considers. You can learn and use DIR's signalling, trim, propulsion, and other techniques without having a stitch of "DIR gear," and you'll be a better diver for it. Keep in mind that DIR is highly directed at overhead technical diving -- where jacket-style BCs are contraindicted -- but if you're doing open-water diving, a good jacket-style BC is a concession that many DIR divers would be ok with.

Like many other, I have been turned off by the attitude and demeanor of most of the DIR divers that I have met.

Despite the common misconception that DIR = attitude, most DIR divers (all the ones I hang out with, anyway) would applaud anyone for thinking critically about their diving, even if they choose some path other than DIR. Unlike many people, I believe a diver can adopt subsets of DIR, and be a safer diver for it, even if they choose not to adopt everything about DIR. This is the way I started out, as well -- picking and choosing. Gradually, as I outgrew my gear and bought new gear, and moved up to more challenging dives, I became pretty much 100% DIR -- I'm very happy with my diving now.

I believe in continual learning and growing in the sport of scuba but I don't think that I will ever subscribe to the idea that there is a single right way to do it.

In open water, shallow diving, there ARE many ways to do it right. In overhead wreck, cave, or deep environments (where DIR focuses its attention), however, the number of choices decreases markedly. In 20,000 foot cave penetrations at 300 ffw, there really is only one way to do it right -- that's where DIR began. Perhaps the name is justified there.

- Warren

 

[ebbtide]

orignal question was are ya a stroke well after reading all the posts and looking over my gear without knowing what a stroke was b4 this post ill have to admit that i am !

 

[peter]

So I must be DIR

Does the term gear junkie sound familiar???

 

[Se7en]

Uncle Pug
While I appreciate the sentiment behind your definition of 'Stroke', I question as to whether you are 'entitled' to it.

I believe the term was coined by the DIR folks, and that in part it defines 'strokes' as those who are unsafe, or those who continue to use a less optimal approach, after they have been educated on how to 'Do it Right'. Including, of course, attitude and gear configuration.

Surely, therefore, if DIR stipulates that Jetfins are the best, and I continue to use my Quattros, then I am, by their definition, a stroke? And as they coined the term, only their definition is applicable?

And due to 'rule number #1' - if you dive with me, you would also be a stroke (As doing it right includes not diving with strokes).

BTW - I am a little confused as to why Jetfins are DIR, when other fins are continually shown to be more efficient? I understand that there may be some issues with split fins causing silting, but the jetfins are not even the most efficient of the paddle fins - and their design would surely cause more silting due to inefficient water movement (ie up and down rather than backwards)?

Me - I wouldn't call myself a stroke, but I'm also not DIR. 95% of my diving is reef / wreck (without penetration) in 120 ft of water. In this sort of diving, moving to a hogarthian configuration would not increase my safety in any measurable manner. However, increasing drag using doubles, increasing physical stress through having to carry them to site, increasing task loading in myself and dive buddies having to check more complex gear, and decreasing finning efficiency through swapping my Quattros for jetfins, would all make me less safe - although again, probably not to a level of significance.

Oh... BTW - I believe that in one of the caves of the nullabor, here in Australia, the end of the line is over 7kms back. That's over 23 000 ft... Perhaps WKPP don't have a monopoly on 'been there, done that' after all. (admitedly, there are two dry sections in this cave, so for the purists it doesn't count as a continuos penetration, but I also know that the divers who have been there were not DIR... and that they still made it back)

Mike

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Se7en
Uncle Pug
While I appreciate the sentiment behind your definition of 'Stroke', I question as to whether you are 'entitled' to it.

Hi Mike,
I am not entitled to define *stroke* for the WKPP or anyone else.

I am entitled to my own definition and also my opinion as to the use of the word.

I don't like it... and I don't use it...

You are entitled to disagree with anything I have to say.


As for Jet fins.... you can argue all you want for or against anything... use whatever fin you want... have fun at it.

I have used Jets since I started diving... there were not many choices back then.

I have owned several split fin designs and find them lacking.

I currently have started using Turtle fins because they fit my current drysuit boots better... and to my surprise I found that they work better than my Jets in reverse.

My scooter is more efficient than any fin for covering ground.

I am glad that your Australian sump divers have had such success.... if you feel that they have more to offer you than the WKPP then by all means follow their example.

I hope you don't think that scuba diving is a competitive sport....

Take care Mike and have fun

 

[Se7en]

Originally posted by Uncle Pug



I don't like it... and I don't use it...

As for Jet fins.... you can argue all you want for or against anything... use whatever fin you want... have fun at it.

if you feel that they have more to offer you than the WKPP then by all means follow their example.

I hope you don't think that scuba diving is a competitive sport....

Take care Mike and have fun

Uncle Pug - I believe I may have given an impression I wasn't aiming for - I liked the way you took a position against the term 'stroke' - I was trying to juxtapose your moderate position against some more strict and regimented dogma. Perhaps the irony stayyed in my head where it originated
I think your distain for the term is good - you like people who think and dive safely, and don't feel the need for any derogatory lables for thos who don't. You offer education to those who want it, and don't distain those who chose another path.

All good

The rest of your post showed the position I think you have, which I was trying to agree with. ie, use whatever you want that is appropriate for the conditions and your ability. Learn from everyone. A lot of the DIR stuff makes sense, so use it.

The aside on the nullabor dives was just in reference to the common DIR argument of 'WKPP is the best, because they do what no one else does. Therefore we should all follow suit'. I thought that perhaps the origional premise was a little flawed, and that even if someone is DIR, they should not shut themselves off from other ideas, developed by other teams doing similar things.

Personally, I like some of the DIR ideas. It's common here to use independant doubles - I will now try a manifold, and unless it doesn't work for me, that's how I'll rig. I also like some of the methods that are used that DIR doesn't agree with - and will use them too.

Finally Of course diving is competative. Anyone who has ever been spat out on their butt to have a good long think about a dive that was just tried knows exactly who the competition is against. It's a competition we can't ever hope to win, but we can try to finish each time...

Mike

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Se7en
[BUncle Pug - I believe I may have given an impression I wasn't aiming for - I liked the way you took a position against the term 'stroke' - I was trying to juxtapose your moderate position against some more strict and regimented dogma. Perhaps the irony stayyed in my head where it originated
[/B]

Don't worry about it another minute... no problem.

You are right in seeing my position juxtaposed to the strict regimented dogma of the WKPP.

I don't have the right to call anyone a stroke...
Neither do most of the people who use the term...
Including those who apply it to themselves...

But let me add:
I think that the WKPP does have the right to their strict regimented dogma and the obligation to identify those who do not meet their standard.... and if they want to call them strokes that is ok with me. Regardless of what any other group is doing any where else in the world.... the WKPP is the only group doing what they are doing at those Depths, Distances and Durations successfully (i.e. no mission fatalities.) No one else has been able to accomplish what they have. I believe that their strict control is the reason.

But it is *beyond the pale* for any diver outside of the WKPP to use the term either derisively or boastfully about others or themselves. And actually I don't think WKPP stoops to use the term to describe recreation divers.

That is pretty much my take on it.

 

[jimholcomb]

...as far as fins go, I think as long as your dives are recreational in nature and no penetration of wrecks or caves, I would stick with the Quattros, if that's what you like. If I recall correctly, though, Quattros have a plastic buckle with that little plastic pin in it. Should it fail in a cave or deep in a wreck, then the problems are more pronounced. I've had the "pleasure" of experiencing that failure in a cave before. It ain't pretty and becomes damn serious real fast.

In reference to the cave penetrations of the WKPP, I believe the remarkable thing about their accomplishments are not so much the distance in and of itself but the distance combined with an average depth of 300'.

 

[Se7en]

Originally posted by jimholcomb
...as far as fins go, I think as long as your dives are recreational in nature and no penetration of wrecks or caves, I would stick with the Quattros, if that's what you like.
In reference to the cave penetrations of the WKPP, I believe the remarkable thing about their accomplishments are not so much the distance in and of itself but the distance combined with an average depth of 300'.

Jimholcomb - are you a Lotus fan?

I do some deeper dives, with some penetration of wrecks, and am to do the local cavern course this year... and will stick with the quattros. Any fin strap, even springs, can fail - look after your gear and the chances are lessened.

I wasn't trying to disparage the WKPP team at all - what they do is awesome. I also believe that they can dictate the full config and attitude of anyone who dives with them, no problems at all.

However, other people use other configs and approaches to perform tasks of similar magnitude - So their ideas are equally worth investigating - for me.

Mike