AquaSafari

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Where we were at "some portion" of the dive is completely irrelevant to where we were when the incident happened. It doesn't matter. These are the facts that matter:

1. Divers were in the water
2. The divers were under an internationally-recognized dive flag.
3. A boat violated any idea of safe distance from a flag that may exist anywhere in the world (zero feet)
4. A diver had to take immediate action to avoid death/injury.
5. The boat crew responded rudely.

Forgive me if I seem to be taking you to task or belaboring this issue, but please clarify and correct me if I have misunderstood your descriptions of what happened.

Earlier, you described the AS dive boat passing at significant speed close to your dive flag and then at slow speed coming right alongside your flag. How close to your flag were they on the fast pass?

Since you disagree the incident occurred in a navigation channel, where is that channel in relation to the dive track in your maps? East of it over deeper water? Is there a locally accepted navigation channel?

Did the two prior boats also come close to your flag? How much time in between the three passes? Five minutes? Any idea why they came so close to your flag?

All in all, do you think the first three passes by all the boats were too close? Is this typical in Coz?

In all of your discussions with the various people associated with the dive op, what is your understanding of why they came so close on the fast pass? Did you determine that? Did they say they didn't see your flag? Ignored your flag? Didn't feel it was important to give more room? Do they expect divers to keep safe by remaining submerged when boats approach? Do you think the dive op give a dive flag more room in the future? Are you satisfied with that?

Have you subsequently done some research to determine the local boating regulations regarding approaching dive flags? What are they? Does local boating practice comport with those regulations? Locally, has this happened to you or others you know before? How widespread is the problem?

The reason I'm asking is because it's not uncommon here in the NE USA to have boats violate a typical state dive flag law by going faster than headway speed within 150 feet of the flag for a variety of reasons, usually ignorance or error, rarely wanton negligence or disregard.

Just for info, here are some links to US state boating laws regarding dive flags showing some variation in the statutes:

Dive Flag Law

I've experienced violations several times and it was always in pretty heavily trafficked areas like where you were, including navigation channels and near boat landings. I felt I should have avoided those areas and not encroached. I felt it was my fault or an understandable mistake on the part of the boater.

When I hear boats passing close, I stay away from the surface and go about my business. I usually plan my dive so I don't have to surface in a heavily trafficked area because I expect mistakes will happen. As a boater myself, I know how easy it is to overlook something.

I remember an incident where some local divers I know got all worked up and "jumped ugly" with some boaters who slowly passed close to their flags as the divers crossed in front of a boat launch. My feeling was the divers shouldn't have planned a dive to cross a high traffic area. Most of the divers didn't realize that boats are allowed in close proximity to the flag if they are moving at headway speed. They unreasonably felt entitled to a 150-foot radius of exclusion. That isn't the law here. Frankly, it was an embarrassment.

I've seen divers get upset to see lobster boats motoring around and bumping into their flags. Not me. The water is a shared resource.

What's the law in Coz?

I am not sure that all DM's fill the same way you do I dove with one that I will not name as well as his father They said that dive is fine. They did warn about current to the north end of paradise. As for how close boats come to shore lets not kind ourselves. We have all seen the boats over the area where the snorkle boats drop swimmers. This is where the dive master put his students in the water. I do not see why you will not except this as the location of the boat. The contact was not in the Channel. I did some of my training in this very same area with a local DM the one I dove with on Friday. I still feel as if this could have been resloved on the spot by the capitan or the DM with a simple "I'm sorry"

Jonathan, Ted has implied that there is a local problem of dive boats coming to close to shore or typical snorkelling areas. Is this a thorn in the side of shore divers there? Is there a feud going on?

Ted has also said on more than one occasion:

I still feel as if this could have been resloved on the spot by the capitan or the DM with a simple "I'm sorry"

Jonathan, if you had been given an apology or acknowledgment of your concern at the time of the incident, would you have still felt the need to attack the dive op on the internet?

In the future, if this same incident happens to you again with a different dive op, will you first go to the dive op management for resolution or will your first choice be to attack them on the internet?

At some point, something has to give. I give. Obviously the facts are not enough. They have been verified by 3 sources, Mr Horn has agreed with my version of what happened, yet here we are, unable to agree on the color of the sky, let alone this topic. There is obviously too much pride in everyone...myself included...for this thread to come to any benefit. This is crushing to me, as I truly thought something good could come of it. But no, it is obvious now that it cannot.

So, I'm going diving. And if an AquaSafari boat runs me over, I'll just keep swimming.

Obviously, I've taken issue mostly with you immediately using the power of the internet to attack a business operation after having a single isolated incident with a couple of their employees. I don't have a problem with trying improve safety by getting boat drivers to give more room to a dive flag.

You have summed it up perfectly when you say above, "There is obviously too much pride in everyone...myself included...for this thread to come to any benefit."

Unfortunately, IMHO, your pride led you to attempt to cause actual harm to this dive op by posting multiple threads disguised as public service or legitimate warning.

That just wasn't fair to the hard-working people of the dive op. I still think the damage is unknown, but it will continue to be unfair to them for a long time. It certainly has been costly in personal terms for the people of the dive op and for yourself.

You probably don't view your motivation as primarily to retaliate in anger and harm them, but did you actually have a positive or constructive goal, perhaps to get the captain of the boat to respect dive flags more? Was this a fair way to do it, by smearing the whole op with damning titles in your posts on the internet?

Sorry to go on so long, but I'll just add that today's "righteous rage", "victimhood" and "getting even" have become so acceptable and prevalent as to greatly erode civility, respect and tolerance of others. This is just an example of it, IMHO.

Nevertheless, I greatly respect your overall reasonableness and self-reflection. You've made a significant effort to openly discuss the issue despite the backlash.

We've probably all learned something from this, but not worth the cost, wouldn't you agree?

Dave C
 
That's one thing I'm fuzzy on as well. None of the crew ever actually said "I saw the flag", or "I never saw the flag". Maybe Mr. Horn could tell us this.

I guess it's never been directly answered. I inferred that the captain did not see the flag based on his appointment with the eye doctor to check his vision. If he saw the flag why would there even be a question about his vision?
 

This little smile seems to be the norm here lately.

Come on guys...I'm getting so tired of your twisted definitions to my comments. I'm off to Socorro to dive with giant pacific mantas! You girls can slap each other around from here on out. Have fun! I certainly will be.
 
This little smile seems to be the norm here lately.

Come on guys...I'm getting so tired of your twisted definitions to my comments.

Bonnie (I'm assuming, based on that being the name attached to other posts in other threads, but maybe its Marty),

I'm not trying to twist your comments. Having not been to Cozumel, I am still confused about whether or not TND should have been diving where the incident occurred. We all agree that the navigation channel might be be a good idea. But from what's been posted here, the area where TND and AS encountered each other is a recognized dive area. Am I wrong about this?

It's the little sideways remarks that take this thread in the wrong direction.
 
I'm off to Socorro to dive with giant pacific mantas! You girls can slap each other around from here on out. Have fun! I certainly will be.
That does sound great. :lol2: Maybe this is the smilie you wanted there? :catfight:
 
I guess it's never been directly answered. I inferred that the captain did not see the flag based on his appointment with the eye doctor to check his vision. If he saw the flag why would there even be a question about his vision?

Yes, makes sense. But if that were the case, then why not acknowledge that and deal with issues that would go from there.

Other possibility: Fallacy: Red Herring
 
Having not been to Cozumel, I am still confused about whether or not TND should have been diving where the incident occurred. We all agree that the navigation channel might be be a good idea. But from what's been posted here, the area where TND and AS encountered each other is a recognized dive area. Am I wrong about this?

On page 40, post #396 Tek provided two drawings showing his dive route. According to these drawings, that he himself provided, he was in the navigational channel when the incident occurred. If they are not representative, then he should change them.

It is standard for boats to drop instructors and students off in this area just off the shallow shelf where the training dives are done and drop off where the navigational channel begins. However, if you are in this navigational channel, you should always stay towards the bottom which varies between 18 to 25 feet. Local guides/instructors know this and practice this.

My understanding is that the captain did not see Tek's flag.
 
Christi, thank you for your response. From what I gathered from earlier posts, AS also had divers in the water in the general area where the near miss occurred. Is this incorrect? I did not see a scale on the images provided by TND, what are the distances involved? Say from the beach to the furthest point out that TND indicated he went on his dive.
 
Forgive me if I seem to be taking you to task or belaboring this issue, but please clarify and correct me if I have misunderstood your descriptions of what happened.

Earlier, you described the AS dive boat passing at significant speed close to your dive flag and then at slow speed coming right alongside your flag. How close to your flag were they on the fast pass?
When the boat passed the flag at high speed, the flag actually hit the hull of the boat. Then they stopped and backed down to where the flag was at. My buddy Morgan was at this time trying to pull the flag away from the prop of the boat, so the flag ended up about 20 feet away from the boat

Since you disagree the incident occurred in a navigation channel, where is that channel in relation to the dive track in your maps? East of it over deeper water? Is there a locally accepted navigation channel?
To tell the truth, I really don't know where it is. There aren't any buoys to mark it, if that's what you're asking. I don't THINK it is where we were at (close to where the water suddenly gets REALLY shallow)


Did the two prior boats also come close to your flag? How much time in between the three passes? Five minutes? Any idea why they came so close to your flag?

All in all, do you think the first three passes by all the boats were too close? Is this typical in Coz?
They both came within 15 feet or so. I couldn't tell you the time, because at that point in the dive it wasn't a focal point for me. I wasn't really paying attention to them other than looking up and thinking "wow, that was close".


In all of your discussions with the various people associated with the dive op, what is your understanding of why they came so close on the fast pass? Did you determine that? Did they say they didn't see your flag? Ignored your flag? Didn't feel it was important to give more room? Do they expect divers to keep safe by remaining submerged when boats approach? Do you think the dive op give a dive flag more room in the future? Are you satisfied with that?

No clue. I haven't gotten a firm answer on anything from Mr Horn.

Jonathan, Ted has implied that there is a local problem of dive boats coming to close to shore or typical snorkelling areas. Is this a thorn in the side of shore divers there? Is there a feud going on?

I haven't been here long enough to observe enough boats to get a real idea of how often it happens. Ted probably mentions that because he was physically hit by a snorkel boat at Paradise a few months ago. The captain said things along the line of what the AS captain did, basically "go away". The snorkel group leader in the water made sure Ted was okay, though.

Jonathan, if you had been given an apology or acknowledgment of your concern at the time of the incident, would you have still felt the need to attack the dive op on the internet?

No, it would have been over with right there, I probably wouldn't have even mentioned it to Mr Horn. It would have been a non-event.

In the future, if this same incident happens to you again with a different dive op, will you first go to the dive op management for resolution or will your first choice be to attack them on the internet?

I would go to management right away. I've learned a lot through this and plan to put what I've learned to good use next time.

You probably don't view your motivation as primarily to retaliate in anger and harm them, but did you actually have a positive or constructive goal, perhaps to get the captain of the boat to respect dive flags more? Was this a fair way to do it, by smearing the whole op with damning titles in your posts on the internet?

Probably not fair, no. My original goal was to bring something good out of it, I just went about it the wrong way.


Christi, thank you for your response. From what I gathered from earlier posts, AS also had divers in the water in the general area where the near miss occurred. Is this incorrect? I did not see a scale on the images provided by TND, what are the distances involved? Say from the beach to the furthest point out that TND indicated he went on his dive.

I went ahead and pulled those images because they were not to scale, nor did they properly show the dive. It's incredibly hard to accurately draw a course on a satellite picture. It does have a distance measuring tool, though, so I can tell you this:

Straight line from entry point to northernmost point on reef (you start the dive here and head south): 520 feet

Straight line from entry point to southernmost point on reef (turn the dive here, if everyone was good enough on air to make it this far): 700 feet

Length of reef: 370 feet

Christi:
My understanding is that the captain did not see Tek's flag.

What evidence leads you to this conclusion? (I'm not attacking you, or saying that it's wrong, I'm just curious if I missed something that shows this)
 
Yes, makes sense. But if that were the case, then why not acknowledge that and deal with issues that would go from there.

Other possibility: Fallacy: Red Herring

I actually wrote that in my post then removed it lest I be accused of bashing AS without proof. For now, I'll go with the working theory that they just did not notice the flag.
 
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