Anyone experienced with either Azimuth or Dolphin; advice appreciated

[MrConclusion]

I am planning on SCR certification later this summer, which will be a good time for me because my buisiness slows down and the local lakes are warmer!

I have been looking into the Draeger Dolphin and the (Mares) Azimuth. Both of them have features I like, are within my budget, and don't seem to have a lot of terrifying incident reports.

If anyone has experience with both of them, I would love to know as much as you can tell me about which you would suggest, and why. I would also appreciate information from anyone with any experience with either one of them. Thanks in advance!

Here are some issues I'm kicking around, thell me if I'm thinking correctly:

1. The Dolphin is more common, even PADI recognizes it... but the Azimuth uses more off-the-shelf parts (hoses, DIN tanks, regs, etc.) However, I have heard that Azimuth-specific parts have been hard to obtain and expensive. Confusing!

2. The Azimuth doesn't rely on the controvertial Draeger sonic orifices, which seems nice. But are the Draeger orifices really that bad?

3. I like the Draeger OxyGauge, I'm not sure if I like the Uwatec Oxy2/AirZ combo, (The Oxy2 looks, in my opinion, pretty clunky when installed) and is also quite a bit more expensive - is it worth it?

4. The Azimuth comes with a much nicer flowmeter and exhaust valve pressure tester; while the Dolphin manual makes Draeger's solution look clumsier less efficient. (true?) However, the Draeger is cheaper, so should I put the difference into better testing/adjustment tools, and what would the be?

Again, thanks in advance! By the way, I will only be diving this unit only a few times (4-6 weekends, plus 1 or 2 week-long trips) every year.

 

[carlislere]

I can only speak for the Dolphin. I have 100 dives on mine. It is easy to assemble and test and easy to disassemble and clean. I used the Drager sorb for it until last fall when I switched to the Micropore ExtendAir. I have no complaints so far. I have no complaints with the flowmeter either.
I do not use the oxyguage anymore as it no longer works. I have noticed that is a complaint of other Dolphin users here also. When Drager sold out their US sales to Aqualung I went for 1 1/2 years without parts. So, to be on the safe side obtain a repair kit from Aqualung if you get the Drager. I have two of them!
Hope this helps.

 

[Dr. Doug Ebersole]

I own both units and I am an IANTD instructor on both units as well. In general, the Dolphin is a very user-friendly unit to set up and to use especially if you are only going to use it a few times per year. However, getting parts through Aqualung has been a hassle. Personally, I prefer diving the Azimuth as it is a lot more versatile in terms of setting flow rates for various mixes, allowing two different mixes, off the shelf hoses, etc. I use the Uwatec AirZO2/Oxy2 combination with both units. It works very well on the Dolphin. On the Azimuth, it is a little cumbersome and gets in the way when you try to look to your right!

I would be happy to discuss both units with you at length. PM me and I'll be glad to call you and discuss each unit at length.

 

[Pawel]

Greetings MrConclusion,

I am bad person to give you advice because I represent one of the manufacturers: OMG (not as you indicated Mares; Mares is no longer involved in OMG Azimuth rebreathers).

OK, let me take a somewhat biased view, although for the work that I do I really do not care whether the unit is made by the company I work for or the competition. I dive and use competitive units if a job is better suited for such unit.

In my view, the only advantage of Dolphin is weight, however I would debate this because you could "ditch" the extra bailout tank from Azimuth and end up with similar weight (not that you should do this!).

It terms of specific parts, both are expensive, but Drager may be quicker to get. Although, I would argue that there are not too many parts in the Azimuth that would be specific and likely to break. For example, LP hoses and much of the fittings and o-ring sizes that you find in Azimuth are standard SCUBA items, while many Drager parts are unique and getting some o-rings can be frustrating and expensive.

From my perspective here are some advantages of Azimuth over Dolphin:
1. Perfectly balanced underwater
2. Finely tuned OPV (with supplied manometer) results in very low WOB. In Drager you can't even adjust the OPV for specific cracking pressure.
3. Safety, Safety, Safety: Redundant onboard bailout with manifold
4. No need for various jets for different mixes, just adjust the variable valve to any flow rate you like
5. You can upgrade to AF model if you want to take it down to 100m on two different mixes
6. Fully insulated, state-of-the-art radial scrubber with excellent performance in cold water
7. Extended duration (higher rated scrubber and more gas) compared to Dolphin
8. Azimuth is just a civilian (magnetic) version of RDN 2000F currently used by clearance divers by various military groups. It is just as capable and rugged.
9. Better ergonomics, like two finger operation of DSV, manifold placement and operation, hoses exiting at perfect angle from the case.
10. In Sydney, you can arrange for a test drive on Azimuth :07:

You can see a picture of me "in action" diving Azimuth in my gallery.

Cheers,

Pawel
OMG/Apollo Australia

 

[MrConclusion]

Carlislere: Thanks, you have put some of my Dolphin "concerns" to rest. I am glad to hear that you're still happy with it after 100+ dives.

Debersole: Thanks for letting me know about the OxyGauge problems, I'll have to look into that issue, obviously. I take it that this is more than just sensor wear-out. I may take you up on the PM invitation, but I'll probably wait a few months until I am more ready to make my move.

Pawel: I don't mind a "biased" opinion as long as it's disclosed, so you're fine! I knew Mares wasn't making thre Azimuth anymore, but I didn't know that OMG was involved now.

I have to admit that I am tentatively leaning more towards the Azimuth, especially after reading the complete tear-down report on nobubblediving.com. However, I have a long-range concern that keeps me considering the Dolphin. I am working towards PADI divemaster certification, especially as my LDS and I have a good relationship and they really seem to want me on their team. So, if I end up going farther in instruction, It might be useful to be up on the "PADI approved" unit. But, for all I know, this will never happen, I might get involved with other (non PADI) groups, or PADI might change their rebreather certifications. Do you think I should even consider this as an issue, or deal with it if and when the time comes?

Pawel, One more question; I know that the Azimuth can be switched between the two onboard tanks, so what else is involved with a Trimix conversion?

 

[caveseeker7]

Mr. Conclusion,

FLTEK posted his impressions on both Azi and Dolphin when he first started out.

And a couple of thoughts:
The Dräger requires a second tank for bailout and bladder inflation. The high ISP required for sonic gas flow doesn't allow a normal 2nd stage or inflator directly from the 1st stage. The bailout tank/valve/1stage are not included but required and bring the price closer to the Azi. The weight too, screw up the center of gravity and usually have less gas (2 ltr vs. 4 ltr).

If Dräger parts are needed and Aqualung causes problem there are several places that sell Dräger OEM parts over the net, like W+S Water Safety and TecMe. The latter is also one of the many places that offers custom parts.
I'm not aware of any place supplying Azi parts over the net, and custom parts are considerably fewer.

Dräger had a 'military' version of the Dolphin, for a while at least, that's where the black case comes from. Forgot the designation, but it's not just an Azi thing.

The Azi AF is quite a bit larger, replacing the 4 ltr tanks with 10 ltr tanks.
It's also very heavy as the large tanks require steel reinforcement of the case.
If trimix is your goal skip the Azi and move to a CCR. Or a passive-addition SCR if you don't want to dive CC.

 

[wedivebc]

I can't comment on azi but I love my dolphins I own several and my main rig has been made fully closed via KISS valve and some parts from www.tecme.de as Stefan mentioned they sell some high performance parts for the dolphin.
I am a padi dolphin instructor and I don't feel they support the unit that well. They don't have a manual for it you just have to use the Draeger owners manual and they recommend Jeff Bozanics, Mastering Rebrethers. It's well worth the price.
I bought a dolphin because it was the least expensive and I didn't know if I wanted to dive rebreathers. 100 + dives later I am here to stay. I have not had any trouble finding parts for the dolphin. Having said all that, I recommend a fully closed rebreather over either one you are thinking about.

 

[Pawel]

Pawel, One more question; I know that the Azimuth can be switched between the two onboard tanks, so what else is involved with a Trimix conversion?

Hi MrConclusion,

Azimuth AF has two OC bailout regulators (each for each mix) and, most importantly two adjustable flow valves allowing you to set two different flows for bottom mix and for top mix. So, when you swith the mixes, you also switch the flow rates. Another difference is that Stefan mentioned, larger 10L tanks, for safety in case of OC bailout. However, I am pretty sure that you could use 4L tanks instead of 10L for less-extreme diving and take advantage of two mixes and two flows. This is something I am considering for my own use over AP Evolution that I was thinking to buy for some specific dives.

Cheers,

Pawel
OMG/Apollo Australia

 

[MrConclusion]

Thanks everybody!

WEDIVEBC - I was betting that someone would eventually tell me to go closed circuit! And I have to admit that I am attracted to the technological elegance of CCRs, but for now they scare me (just being honest, please don't take that wrong!) and I would rather start with a "simpler" rebreather. Plus, I don't know if I would ever want to dive in conditions that would exceed the limits of a Dolphin or Azimuth.

PAWEL - Trimix sounds like a great option, although I have never been tempted to go truly deep, I have read & appreciated a lot about the deco benefits / comfort / narcosis limiting effects of tech gasses such as TriOx even at moderate depths. And, I do have the dream to dive WWII wrecks like Truk lagoon... someday!

CAVESEEKER7 - By passive addition, I assume you mean something like an RB80; which I think looks like a very nice machine, but unless I am wrong, we're talking about a much more expensive rig. Keep in mind that I'm not comfortable with used equipment so I am purchasing new. Does anyone know the real cost of an entire RB80 (backplate, wing, etc.) rig. By the way, I'm not into the whole DIR philosophy - I see the logic and the benefits, but I'm not a fundamentalist.

As far as risk tolerance goes, I am not yet willing to trust electronic CCRs; at least not until I am really familiar with what a rebreather should be doing during those inevitable stressful; and unexpected events. I do like all the new features built into the hammerhead and new evolution/inspiration, but it's a heck of an expense for a low-use recreational rig, and beyond my budget.

The riskiest diving I do is solo diving (please don't pummel me for this - I know the practice is controvertial and my equipment choice will cause some of you to foam at the mouth!) I dive with a good "wing" BC, single aluminum 80 with a premium regulator/octo setup, a spare air (yes, I know, but I HAVE practiced safe ascent from 80ft with it) and a backup buoy & line. Many of you consider it a dangerous toy, but it works! I only dive like this in non-overhead, very favorable conditions. And I have run into plenty of other guys out there, alone with NO redundant air, so while spare air might be the poser's choice (lol at me), it's a heck of a lot better than nothing. I'm all about managing my own equipment, safety, and air supply - but a pony system is a lot to deal with on international flights.

In other words, I'm think I'm ready and willing to take on a rebreather, but only one that I can fully understand and control, and is within my budget to keep it in absolutely top shape. So far, the principles, design, and operation of the Dolphin/Azimuth seem like something I can cope with - although the RB80 looks like a great option, i really know little about its "real world" performance.

 

[caveseeker7]

I was betting that someone would eventually tell me to go closed circuit! And I have to admit that I am attracted to the technological elegance of CCRs, but for now they scare me (just being honest, please don't take that wrong!) and I would rather start with a "simpler" rebreather. Plus, I don't know if I would ever want to dive in conditions that would exceed the limits of a Dolphin or Azimuth.

An easy bet to win.
But now that you elaborated a bit more on your diving I think you should give the SportKiss a consideration, or better yet an intro if it's available in your area.

The gas addition is not unlike active-addition SCRs you asked about. An orifieced valve bleeds O2 into the loop continiously. The SCRs inject considerably more gas than you need (most of the time, anyway, they can be "overbreathed") and then dump some of it every fourth breath or so. Hence semi-closed. That means loop volume is always quite full, the units have a lot of positive bouyancy. Hence either a lot of lead (Dräger) or a very heavy rig (Azi) to counter.

The SportKiss injects O2 just below your normal metabolic rate, and is periodically topped off with the manual addition button on the valve. You (ideally) dive at minimal loop volume (just about enough for one really deep breath, takes a bit of prcatise), which translates into less bouyancy. On the SportKiss you have the option of a steel or alu case, the former great for cold water diving with plenty of negative bouyancy, the latter great for travelling. You can fit the entire rig into a carry-on backpack when the tanks are off. You can easily use different size tanks, either 2 ltr or 3 ltr one will work on the alu housing, the steel can take a bit larger.

With the Dräger you're limited by the valves which must fit the tank (propriatory) and with the Azi by the case since the tanks are inside.

I would not dive either active-addition SCR without O2 monitor, so there isn't that much difference in that respect for between SCR and CCR. Other than the O2 monitor the KISSes don't have electronics, so any worries about those don't apply.

The SportKiss is trimix capable and factory rated to 150 fsw, which is your range anyway. They have been taken deeper quite a bit, the gas delievery system works to around 100m. The fairly small scrubber is the main reason to limit depth (and liability). A larger scrubber was announced at DEMA.

The SportKiss also includes an OC second stage integrated into the DSV, a quarter turn to close the loop and you're breathing of the 2nd stage. Beats both Dräger and OMG DSVs.

And with a CCR you only have to plan ahead your general diving to choose your dil, air or mix. Everthing else you can plan when you know the actual dive site.

In simplicity the SportKiss beats either SCR, it's a wonderfull little design. In fit and finish it easily matches the Azi, and both beat the flimsy Dräger.

Finally the prices are in close proximity. Last list on the Dräger I know of was $3,650, though I've seen 'em for less in stores that wanted to get rid of them. Add bailout tank with valve and first stage. The last Azi price I've heard was $4,500 for a new unit, at least they are ready to dive. As mantioned, I would not go without pO2 monitor, anywhere between $500 to over $2,000 for ZO2/Oxy2 and Azi adapter! :11:

The SportKiss complete with sensors, BC and tanks goes for $4,780.
Without bc and tanks $4,000.

By passive addition, I assume you mean something like an RB80; which I think looks like a very nice machine, but unless I am wrong, we're talking about a much more expensive rig.

Yes, that's the type of SCR I was taling about. The Halcyon as well as the GUE training for it are very good and very expensive. Been a while since I talked to them, but a complete rig is over $10K, and if you're not GUE trained add three classes before you can take the SCR class.

But there are small companies in Germany building SCRs ... inspired by the Buchaly's design, and I would prefer one or two of those over active addition SCRs for extended range (deep or long) dives. One of them is even pursuing a training course for their unit, something that so far has been sorely lacking.

The riskiest diving I do is solo diving

Nothing wrong with that in my book if you have the equipment and skills to do it.
Your skills I don't know, but your equipment would fall short of my requirements.
Not a problem for me as long as I don't have to use it.

If you switch to a rebreather however, even with fully redundant OC bailout, you should stay away from solo diving, at least for a long while. Solo diving has been involved in a lot of rebreather fatalities (and I mean involved, not necessarily caused).
If you switch to any rebreather, you'll be starting from scratch!