Anyone experienced with either Azimuth or Dolphin; advice appreciated

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Having dived a Dolphin for a bit, and now owning a Sport KISS, I would never, ever suggest that someone should actually own an SCR. Maybe get training on a Dolphin to see if they actually like the idea of an RB, but definitely not outlay the money for one.
Why? Because, despite opposing opinions, IMO SCR does not give enough benefits over OC to be worth it. When you have one you realise that they are bulky, heavy pieces of kit, with many many more things to go wrong, additional ongoing costs due to sorb, O2 sensors (if you use them), extra regs etc. They also require considerably more planning for repetitive diving than OC, and your computer won't likely track with your SCR as well (though you can fudge it). It's terribly frustrating to have a small leak, then have to can your dive due to something as simple as a bit of a leaky O-ring. This is particularly relevant if you dive with OC buddies, or you are on your own.

As an aside - I would not recommend diving solo on an SCR. When you do your training, you'll find out how important bubble checks are. Doing a bubble check on an SCR when you have a buddy is easy - any bubbles can be matched up to where they came from. When you solo dive, assuming you don't take your unit off to check bubbles (it would be a real pain) then the only diagnostic you have is bubbles going to the surface. I have enough trouble verifying if bubbles have worked their way up the case and bubbling up, on an SCR you'd have the problem of bubbles being vented making diagnosis much much harder. People will say that leaks don't matter as much considering an SCR is by design a slightly positive pressure unit - but I wouldn't trust it, particularly without PO2 monitoring. I know people who have dived SCRs without monitoring and not died, but the real variation in what you breathe is simply scary in practice when you can watch it via the Oxygauage, for example. And I hate the fudging you have to do, giving you less nitrox benefit than you should have, as well as artificially restricting your depth over the PO2 actually in your loop.

And what do you get? Warm moist air, fewer bubbles. Whoop de doo. When you really compare the durations you get with the RB and weights with appropriate bailout, you could generally be using twins and have a simpler setup. I don't consider the 'nitrox benefit' touted as anything special, just put nitrox in your twins. I imagine I sound jaded about SCR, which really I'm not - it's just that when you have other options either in the case of simple use in twins, or so much more advantages when CCR than SCR is a bit like the poor cousin.

Now, when you get into CCR you get no bubbles, all the benefits of constant PO2 deco, less weight to carry, no need to plan ahead for depths on dive boats, less gas used (big big big benefit when you go to trimix) and good PO2 monitoring as standard.
Considering the price differential and the minor additional training required, it's really not a big stretch to go for something like the Sport KISS over the Dolphin, or Azi. I know people modifying both to CCR, and they both consider the Sport KISS a no-brainer option.

For me, the Sport KISS really came through on all the things I had thought the Dolphin would be. The difference in SCR vs CCR is huge, and really worth the trifling extra cash you'll outlay. In fact, if you start using Trimix, likely you'll make that cash difference up very fast.

Now, if you HAVE to go SCR, the Dolphin is nice, but cheap. The Azi is a much much more capable unit, and the comfort while wearing, as well as trim and general quality is far above the Dolphin.

Cheers,
Nathan
 
MrConclusion,

Let me address some misinformed and poorely-founded views that Nathan posted.

nl_carey:
As an aside - I would not recommend diving solo on an SCR.
As opposed to, what? Solo diving a CCR ...:monkeydan
The biggest danger when solo diving a rebreather (which I do most of the time) is hyperoxia. Why? Because you do not have early symptomps or warning. Hyperoxia is not possible on SCR for start!
Then, both, lack of O2 and excess of CO2 can be felt (at least I can feel CO2 symptoms quite clearly) hence, if you are considering solo diving on a rebreather, an SCR would be a much safer option than a CCR.

Further, all things being equal, hypoxia and hypercarpnia are less of a risk on an SCR than on a CCR because some (bad) gas is vented out in a SCR. Specially CO2 buildup is much less likely in an SCR.

Also, when considering the risk of hypercarpnia (CO2 buildup) you should evaluate the scrubber design of the individual unit (regardless of SCR or CCR design). If you intend to dive in cold water or perform heavy exercise, make sure to chose fully insulated and effective scrubber. For example, Sport KISS does not have an insulated scrubber and the risk of scrubber breakthrough in cold water or/and heavy exercise on such unit should not be underestimated.

nl_carey:
...I have enough trouble verifying if bubbles have worked their way up the case and bubbling up...
I believe this is a specific deficiency of Sport KISS design. I guess you get what you pay for. Most well-designed CCRs and SCRs from various manufacturers do not have such fundamental problem and you can easily make a positive and negative pressure test and perform visual inspection of the counterlung. Sport KISS has the counterlungs placed in a metal case that does not allow for visual inspection. Also, the counterlungs are made from non-transparent material further reducing a chance to spot any water inside them.

nl_carey:
I know people who have dived SCRs without monitoring and not died, but the real variation in what you breathe is simply scary in practice when you can watch it via the Oxygauage, for example.
And then there is a considerable population of people who dived CCRs with monitoring and died...
Oxyguage or any other single cell PPO2 device is not an adequate method alone for determining PPO2 of the mix regardless whether CCR or SCR. There are procedures in SCR operation (mostly specific to the unit) that are much more fundamental to assure safety of an SCR rather than relying on a single PPO2 meter. PPO2 meter in an SCR is just an added, extra safety measure of an already reasonably safe principle.

nl_carey:
And what do you get? Warm moist air,
For start not, Air! In a rebreather you do not breathe air and this is tought in the first lesson of a rebreather course. Secondly, all rebreathers provide warm and moist gas. And, those that have short and well insulated path will deliver warmer gas than those that don't. For example, Sport KISS has quite long, convoluted and totally uninsulated loop and therefore would deliver significantly cooler gas and possibly even compromise scrubber efficiency than a well designed SCR or CCR.

nl_carey:
... or so much more advantages when CCR than SCR is a bit like the poor cousin.
The only practical advantage of a mixed gas CCR over SCR is const PO2 verus const FO2. This avantage is only relevant in very deep or long decompression dives. Otherwise there are also some clear disadvantages of CCRs, such as reliance on constant monitoring of the content of the loop, risk of hyperoxia, higher risk of CO2 buildup, amount of onboard bailout gas, purchase cost, cost of at least 2 more O2 sensors, just to name a few.

Whether there are advantages or not largely depends on type of diving you intend to do most of the time and individual features of the unit and, in many (if not most) cases, an SCR is a much better choice.

nl_carey:
...less weight to carry...
This is simply not true. I have an SCR that weighs 11.5kg ready to dive including wing, harness, 3 (yes, three!) tanks and filled with sorb. This is half of Sport KISS or Evolution. The rebreather is rated to 4-5h duration (2 times more than Sport KISS or Evolution) and has at least three times as much bailout onboard compared to "poor cousin" recreational CCRs.

Another example, a more affordable Azimuth with a total of 8L of (rich) onboard bailout. It is probably lighter (at 27kg including weights and sorb) than Sport KISS or Evolution with only 2L onboard + 4L offboard = 6L total (lean) bailout. Azimuth is rated for longer duration than either of those two CCRs (minimum 2.5h vs maximum 2h) and it is less expensive.

nl_carey:
I know people modifying both to CCR, and they both consider the Sport KISS a no-brainer option.
Yeah, they have no brain because (in case of Azimuth) the WOB would increase (wrong placement for CCR operation) and SCR counterlung is not designed for CCR operation (inadequate volume). Most importantly, the manufacturer would not take any responsibility for such modification.

nl_carey:
The difference in SCR vs CCR is huge, and really worth the trifling extra cash you'll outlay. In fact, if you start using Trimix, likely you'll make that cash difference up very fast.
Conversly, if you are into shallow or/and infrequent diving, chances are you may never recover the extra cost and have questionable benefits of const PPO2 diving.

In short, some people foolishly think that a CCR is the best thing since sliced bread because they just bought one. I have several CCRs and several SCRs that I use depending on the type of dive I intend to do :11ztongue

Cheers,

Pawel
 
Pawel:
... hypoxia and hypercarpnia are less of a risk on an SCR than on a CCR because some (bad) gas is vented out in a SCR. Specially CO2 buildup is much less likely in an SCR.
CO2 buildup in the loop is one thing, CO2 buildup in the diver another. That can happen even on OC! Among the many factors for CO2 buildup is WOB, and most if not all rebreathers with over-the-shoulder mounted counterlungs have lower WOB and all have less hydrostatic differences (one factor of WOB).

The only practical advantage of a mixed gas CCR over SCR is const PO2 verus const FO2. This avantage is only relevant in very deep or long decompression dives.
That's not quite correct. It's an advantage on any dive as the mix changes with depth.
If you dive either Dolphin or Azi square profile to a depth where the pO2 is 1.4ata, and set (or keep) the pO2 on a CCR 1.4 ata, none will have an advantage at that depth.

On any depth shallower than said MOD, however, the CCR will give the advantage of constant pO2 versus the SCR's fO2. Consider the different in partial pressure during your safety stop, for example. Huge. The reason this advantage comes more to play during extended range diving is that the return portion (ascend & deco) is longer than on a recreational no deco dive. But the advantage is there on any dive.

This is simply not true. I have an SCR that weighs 11.5kg ready to dive including wing, harness, 3 (yes, three!) tanks and filled with sorb. ... The rebreather is rated to 4-5h duration ... and has at least three times as much bailout onboard compared to "poor cousin" recreational CCRs.
Cool. Please answer the following questions:
1.What SCR is it?
2.Where can we buy it?
3.How much does it cost?
4.Which agency provides training?

Three tanks -> at least three times the bailout of rec CCRs ... afaik current production CCRs usually come with either 2 ltr or 3 ltr tanks. Since you said 'at least' I asume your SCR has 9 ltr capacity (at the same pressure) ... must be very light tanks. Composite?
The do come with DOT here in the US, correct?

Pawel, if this is one of the military units unavailable to civilians and with a 'military' price tag, any point you were trying to make is useless for most of us. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's either available or feasible.
Secret weasel stuff doesn't really count. :wink:
Cheers.
 
I didn't want to start a CCR/SCR argument, but I see it was inevitable - sorry!

Thanks everyone for the continuing opinions and advice. I really do agree that CCRs have way more benefits, but I will need to see if I ever do enough diving to make it worthwhile to own one. Looking at the design principles, features, and benefits, I would love to have an Evolution or a tricked-out Megalodon / Prizm, but I'm not ready for the investment or responsability. I'd rather get a decent SCR and see if I ever go so far with RBs that I really NEED more capability, only then decide whether or not to "move up to CCR."

I like the price of the KISS and SPORT KISS compared to their capabilities, but for various reasons that I won't get into (Pawel mentioned a few of them) I din't think it's right for me.

And the whole point about not getting into RBs if it will interfere with OC buddies is an excellent one. Maybe I need to buy TWO of them (ha ha ha!) That makes me think about getting something rock-bottom (like a used but decent Draeger RAY) to learn about and dive with when possible, and decide whether I want to step up. Hopefully I will meet some "rebreather buddies" during training.
 
MrConclusion:
I didn't want to start a CCR/SCR argument, but I see it was inevitable - sorry!
No worries. For one thing I was arguing with Pawel, something that can "just" happen anyway. :wink:
For another, you asked Dolphin or Azi, and we could have had the argument just about those two.
And keep going for a while. :D

I really do agree that CCRs have way more benefits, but I will need to see if I ever do enough diving to make it worthwhile to own one.
A CCR offers more. A CCR costs more. Not just in monetary terms, but that's one of them.
The scales are fairly balanced, but ususally tips either way for different divers.
That's really the bottom line, analyze your needs and wants and find the equipment that matches.

Looking at the design principles, features, and benefits, I would love to have an Evolution or a tricked-out Megalodon / Prizm ...
We could keep an arguement going for pages about those, too. :wink:

And the whole point about not getting into RBs if it will interfere with OC buddies is an excellent one.
See. It might be for you, I'd be looking for new buddies. :11:

The best recommendation I can really give is do a bit of reserach, narrow it down (like you have to Drägers, Azi and maybe KISS), and do intros. With the SCRs Doug can take care of it, if you visit FL finding KISSes shouldn't be hard.

Be around for setup and breakdown to get an idea what's involved, check out the rigs and get a first impression of rebreathing. Do it together with one or more of your buddies. They'll learn something and it'll be fun. And afterwards, you can argue it among yourselves. :wink:
 
Mr Conclussion I noticed you mentioned interest in later becoming a Divemaster. I wasn't sure if this was brought up already. But as I am currently going through Divemaster class I thought I would point this out. According to PADI when you are a Divemaster in a class, you cannot use a CCR/ SCR System ( I tried to look up where I read this but couldn't find it I know it is in the instructor manual). You have to use the standard kit, plus a few extra items. Anyway hope this helps w/ your decision, & I would love to hear about what System you get later, & how you like it.
 
Stoiclown - That's an excellent point, and fortunately I already knew about that so I wasn't counting on using the RB during Divemaster training. I was trying to imply two things that might happen as a result of beginning the Divemaster training:

1. If I end up going more into training, it would be cool if I could eventually train people on rebreathers, because that would be a new thing for my local dive shop. This, I would think, is a while in the future, if ever.

2. The training and work involved with divemaster certification is going to take me to more places to dive more often, so I might end up having more chances to dive (maybe occasionally with a rebreather) than I do now.

I am pretty involved with my full-time job, so the whole divemaster thing is going to be VERY part-time for me.
 
Hi Stefan,

I agree to the first two points you made.

caveseeker7:
Cool. Please answer the following questions:
1.What SCR is it?
2.Where can we buy it?
3.How much does it cost?
4.Which agency provides training?
OK, it doesn't count. It is a "secret squirrel" rebreather. To answer your questions: you can not buy it, it costs more than my BMW and I can train you on the unit (but not on diving) :11: I just wanted to give an extreme example to show that a SCR is not necesarily a "poor cousin" of a CCR, that's all. A more realistic comparison, Azimuth that, even though quite heavy, it would probably still end up ligheter than most CCRs with adequate bailout. Just an observation that whilst CCRs are much more efficient, agreed, it does not mean that you would carry less weight or less gas.

caveseeker7:
Three tanks -> at least three times the bailout of rec CCRs ... afaik current production CCRs usually come with either 2 ltr or 3 ltr tanks. Since you said 'at least' I asume your SCR has 9 ltr capacity (at the same pressure) ... must be very light tanks. Composite?
The do come with DOT here in the US, correct?
Yes, DOT approved. Yes, composite (gel coated for diving). Yes, they are ultra light (~1kg), 1.5L each at 310 bar. I assumed most small CCRs would use 2L 200bar tanks for diluent. The tanks aren't "Secret Squirrel" and I even have a few spare once, if you wanted to jazz up your Prizm :dazzler1:

Cheers,

Pawel
 
caveseeker7:
No worries. For one thing I was arguing with Pawel, something that can "just" happen anyway. :wink:
My pleasure, any time, Stefan :wink:
BTW, nice rb forum that you pointed to.

Cheers,

Pawel
 
One thing in the Azi vs Dolphin question that hasn't been mentioned yet, is that there are a lot more Dolphins around, and it is the only RB that turns up frequently used, especially now that new CCRs are coming on to the market.

I'd never buy a Dolphin new, but used they can be a great deal - dive it for a year or two then sell it for close what you paid for it. Also, should you need parts, AL may not be doing a great job in the US, but there are several mail order sources abroad, and used parts from units that get parted out which makes the situation much better than for the Azi.
 

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